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smackdown is starting to get really bad


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#51 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 07:34 AM

Rotfl. Obviously.

Pure wrestling and Cena doesn't go together.

and if you're referring to Cena;s match where he debuted with the ruthless agression crap then use I'll tell you that sucked too.

I skipped over the Taker match on that DVD as it wasn't worth my time.

Yeah when Cena knows how to tell a story, and sell then let's come back to this discussion

#52 Guest_Stu_*

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 07:36 AM

Hang on! You're telling me that Cena can't wrestle even though you skipped past his greatest match, so how can you possibly say? The Cena match was one of the best on that DVD as a whole! And who in the world, apart from maybe Tazz and Kurt Angle had a better debut match than Cena? Not many.

#53 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 07:39 AM

~ The Hitman ~, on Jul 28 2006, 08:36 AM, said:

Hang on!  You're telling me that Cena can't wrestle even though you skipped past his greatest match, so how can you possibly say?  The Cena match was one of the best on that DVD as a whole!  And who in the world, apart from maybe Tazz and Kurt Angle had a better debut match than Cena?  Not many.
I'm sure there are plently of wrestlers who have had better debut matches.

Yeah I skipped over the match on Taker as I had already seen it when I ordered the PPV.

And LMFAO! I HIGHLY HIGHLY disagree about Cena's match on Taker's dvd being the best out of that.

I could name one match: HIAC

No I'm not talking about Taker/Mankind.

I'm talking about HBK/Taker. Build up was great

Edited by mark1, 28 July 2006 - 07:39 AM.


#54 Guest_Stu_*

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 07:42 AM

I could name several matches on it that were better than Cena vs Undertaker - hence why I said it was one of the best matches on the DVD.

You say all this but you don't back it up. You say Cena only uses a few moves, that is rubbish. You say he has six moves of doom - excuse me but Bret Hart invented the six moves of doom. Its the last few moves that build up to the finish the match (for Bret it was the Sharpshooter for Cena its the STF-U). Those moves, because they are used every match, look like the only moves he use. He doesn't. He'll do the simple things such as side headlocks, headlock tack overs, hammerlocks, ddt's, even a spinebuster or two.


#55 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 07:48 AM

~ The Hitman ~, on Jul 28 2006, 08:42 AM, said:

I could name several matches on it that were better than Cena vs Undertaker - hence why I said it was one of the best matches on the DVD. 

You say all this but you don't back it up.  You say Cena only uses a few moves, that is rubbish.  You say he has six moves of doom - excuse me but Bret Hart invented the six moves of doom.  Its the last few moves that build up to the finish the match (for Bret it was the Sharpshooter for Cena its the STF-U). Those moves, because they are used every match, look like the only moves he use.  He doesn't.  He'll do the simple things such as side headlocks, headlock tack overs, hammerlocks, ddt's, even a spinebuster or two. 
Nice way to put the typical Cena hater's words in my mouth

What I said was that he does the action in ever match as if he cherographed it.
I could careless about his Shoulder Tackle, Back Suplex and ect. Though people know the end is near if the guy actually tried in his matches, sold some moves switched it up a bit like most wrestlers who use the "6 moves of doom" then no one would have a problem.

But no. People don't like faces always dominating. Hence why Angle was getting booed whe he turned into a face as the wrestling machine.

The guy will never get my respect as far as his work rate. Let me say. . To use a Bret Hart quote with it slightly changed, "Once you've seen one John Cena match you've seen them all"

Edited by mark1, 28 July 2006 - 07:53 AM.


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Posted 28 July 2006 - 07:54 AM

When, has Angle been booed since becoming a face. If you say at Vengeance, he was a heel to the WWE fans but a face to the ECW faithful. If you say any time since he went to ECW, same as what I just said.

Moves switched around? There's no need, because nowadays his six-moves are countered at one point in the sequence and the match continues. I can hardly remember a match since last year that Cena has won with six moves of doom sequence. He wins with either: An F-U to counter a clothesline, cross body, etc - or - an STFU to counter a running move by doing a drop-to-hold. Hence, why six moves of doom is a rubbish expression for Cena because it never ends the match. Bret Hart never changed the sequence of his moves, but you don't complain about him. And don't you dare say that Bret used other moves as well as those six, because so does Cena - and if you paid attention to a John Cena match, you'd know it.


#57 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:00 AM

You still haven't tried to aruge Cena's selling..Which I'm waiting for.

I still stand by what I said earlier "Once you've seen one Cena match, you've seen them all"

His matches practically start out all the same. End all the same

Before him jumping to Raw Cena was never a good wrestler.

WWE can shove him down little kids throats but once you're older you get sick of him and seeing him.

Not to mention his promos sucks(ed)

And I do recall Angle recieveing boos when he was face. I don't have the exact place and date but I remember it well

Edited by mark1, 28 July 2006 - 08:01 AM.


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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:06 AM

Promo's sucked? They were the most humourous (the ones in his early days), most original (he did write them himself) and the most classic ones since the Rock and Jericho. Like I said earlier with the STF-U and the F-U, his matches in no way end the same.

Fine, you want me to mention Cena's selling of moves. Of course he does. He over-sells the moves if anything. Which, although is a bad thing, is not as bad as what you think he does in not selling at all. He's very "flamboyant" to say the least when selling moves, but lots of people were: most notably the Rock.


#59 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:14 AM

Over-selling? More like under-selling as him selling is atrocious. I don't see how you could say he's flamboyant when selling. HBK is flamboyant when selling. It seems Cena doesn't register selling a move when its time. Lets stroll back to his feud with Angle. Angle could have him in the ankle lock for damn near the entire match but somehow, some way Cena pops up like Jesus himself has touched him and cured him.

Or when he was put through the annoucer's table.Popped right up like nothing happend

Rock COULD sell although sometimes hi selling was a bit much.(I.E Stone Cold Stunner. But lets be honest Scott Hall sold it like crazy too at WM 18)

And I have never seen anyone say his promos were most classic since Jericho and Rock.

Ok, I can rap myself. Let me string together a few verses. I'll throw in some jokes about homosexuals, I'll throw in some jokes about nuts.

Yeah he could've wrote them all but at the end of the day they aren't funny.

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:20 AM

I may be jumping the gun a bit, but you're just like every other traditional Cena hater. I'm not a Cena fan, I may never be - but I like what he does in the ring and on the microphone. The majority of Cena haters, and I may get slandered for saying this - but I don't care, are, in my view, narrow-minded and just pick at him trying to find the slightest thing wrong with him and basically making stuff up like "his raps weren't good". Excuse me, if they weren't good, I don't know what is. And as a Rock-music fan, I don't often like rap. But that was just funny.

I don't hate him. I can think of several things wrong with him but I still like him as a wrestler.


#61 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:22 AM

I don't pick at him for the slightest things.

I just think he's a very horrible, horrible wwe CHAMPION IN RECENT MONTHS

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:25 AM

Well, considering he hasn't been WWE Champion in recent months, go figure...
I dislike some wrestlers, but I don't pick at them for the sake of picking on them. I base my opinions on how good someone is in the ring, and how well they wrestle their style (my preference being technical).


#63 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:26 AM

So you don't consider the months before he lost it to RVD recent months then?

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:29 AM

Not really, because they weren't times when he was a horrible horrible horrible champion. He had some great matches in that time (e.g. vs Edge and Triple H). But for conversation purposes, I don't believe they class as recent months. A lot has happened between now and Cena has lost the title so I don't believe it should.

#65 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:31 AM

Heh well lets just say when he turns heel he'll suck imo

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:33 AM

I thought you aready thought he sucked? Besides, as a heel was when he had his best matches (e.g. against Undertaker). He didn't suffer from "moves of doom" as you think of it and he used all sorts of craft moves and counters.

#67 mark1

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:33 AM

I meant as to say (or I thought I said) He will still suck imo

#68 HmKurtAngle

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:37 AM

mark1, on Jul 28 2006, 08:34 AM, said:

Rotfl. Obviously.

Pure wrestling and Cena doesn't go together.

and if you're referring to Cena;s match where he debuted with the ruthless agression crap then use I'll tell you that sucked too.

I skipped over the Taker match on that DVD as it wasn't worth my time.

Yeah when Cena knows how to tell a story, and sell then let's come back to this discussion
In WWE they make it look like Cena can`t wrestle In Ovw When He Was John"Prototype" He was all over the place whoopin ass becoming everychampion there was to be on ovw yeah he sucks in wwe but that the management that sucks........

Edited by HmKurtAngle, 28 July 2006 - 08:39 AM.


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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:44 AM

They don't make him look like he can't wrestle, though. People just take this "six moves of doom" crap, they see it every match - they believe its his only moves and become almost ignorant to his other moves. He uses other moves and you only have to watch a John Cena match to recognise it.

#70 HmKurtAngle

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:59 AM

i see the new moves he uses and are pretty good with it.

He use his modified backdrop,droptoehold,stf,a new version suplex,a couple top rope moves......still uses the f-u,hiptoss,font face headlock,running shouldertackle,lou thez prez or whatever stonecold use to use when he run jump on the oponent making them fall and start punchin at they face,and he uses a new punch combo (Punch to the gut,uppercut punch,punch to the head,and five knuckleshuffle after he falls.)i know he uses alot of moves people seen the other so many time they tune out of the matches like you said

#71 wwfpooh

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 09:40 AM

~ The Hitman ~, on Jul 28 2006, 09:33 AM, said:

I thought you aready thought he sucked? Besides, as a heel was when he had his best matches (e.g. against Undertaker). He didn't suffer from "moves of doom" as you think of it and he used all sorts of craft moves and counters.
And when he was heel was when he could do all those home-baked, freestyles that made his character famous.

Back in the day, he was talented (OVW as the "Prototype") and had charisma (SD!'s "Doctor of Thugonomics"), but once they moved him to RAW and he started getting into the title picture, WWE management felt that he could be a very marketable guy.

Being marketable doesn't mean you're good, but it means that a lot of the core audience at the shows (most of which are markist and are children/women, with us guys just there to be there) enjoy watching you perform, despite "moves of doom".

True, Cena didn't spice up the sequence for several months, but that was because WWE was on a high of making him a face underdog champion on RAW to counter SD!'s Rey Mysterio, not to mention that, as a marketable talent, one is now told to work from one's marketable moves; i.e. "moves of doom" (unlike the old days where one would discuss the moves prefered before the match, but worked on the moves in the ring), but because all the markist fans only wish to see the trademarked/marketable/moves of doom sequence of a popular wrestler (not just Cena....Hogan and Bret throughout their careers, The Rock and Austin currently, HHH during the "20 + minute, glory-hogging promo" years, etc.), well...Fan appeasement and management telling him to keep doing it for more money is why Cena rarely ever changes the end to his matches, even though nowadays his combo is broken at some point, resuming the match at hand.

Though the underdog idea was, in a way, a bad thing, for it got stale quickly to older male fans (Cena still as champ, similar to JBL & HHH before him; Rey as champ, but with Eddie's death as the launchpad), the children and women in the audience--the ones that buy the merchandise--were eating it all up.

WWE's trying to, in a sense, make Cena the new Austin (i.e. the new guy that can rake in loads of money to make WWE a well-watched program).

Like Austin...

1. Cena's got an anti-authority gimmick (Though the gimmick has changed from a hip thug rapper to a semi-lame "Chain Gang Soldier" with rap music)
2. Cena's got marketable moves (Austin's got the Lou Thez Press, Mudhole Stomp, Stunner, etc. & Cena's got Killswitch aka Protobomb, Five Knuckle Shuffle, F-U or STF-U, etc.)
3. Cena is a phenomenon (Like Austin before him, Cena makes sales and tons of money)
4. Cena is beloved by markist fans (Whether face or heel--like Austin before him--Cena is loved by legions of the fans that fill the seats)
5. Cena's got an entrance that gets people jumping (Like Austin's "Glass Shatters" entrance to get the crowd amped, a good portion of the audience waits in anticipation for Cena's rap theme--that he composed/wrote himself--to kick in)

*rambles*

#72 Guest_Stu_*

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 09:43 AM

Rambles and then some. Great read though, pooh. I totally agree with all of it - except for one thing (I'm changing the subject again :P). Cena may be great marketing, but only one man brings in the fans. The most watched WWE Champion of all time: Edge.

#73 BucFan20

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 09:47 AM

Cena's selling now, isn't so good. Most of the time it looks bad whether he's overselling or not selling enough. I remember his match with Big Show, the most recent one on RAW, and after Show punched him Cena would start wobbling back and forth. Didn't look good at all, he looked like an idiot.

He was a lot better back then than he is now. He wouldn't be where he is now if he wasn't. The fans started cheering him when he was a heel, they liked him and thought he was entertaining. It's not like WWE picked him out randomly and said that this was the guy they were going to make a star.

He was pretty good when he first became a face. Then when he got closer to the WWE title he started to get worse. He stopped doing some of the things that got him there in the first place. Now, he just seems to be some generic face. There's nothing special about him anymore.

I think Cena's more like Hogan than Stone Cold. Or some combination of The Rock, Stone Cold, and Hogan, which doesn't work well either.

#74 wwfpooh

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 09:51 AM

BucFan20, on Jul 28 2006, 10:47 AM, said:

Cena's selling now, isn't so good. Most of the time it looks bad whether he's overselling or not selling enough. I remember his match with Big Show, the most recent one on RAW, and after Show punched him Cena would start wobbling back and forth. Didn't look good at all, he looked like an idiot.

He was a lot better back then than he is now. He wouldn't be where he is now if he wasn't. The fans started cheering him when he was a heel, they liked him and thought he was entertaining. It's not like WWE picked him out randomly and said that this was the guy they were going to make a star.

He was pretty good when he first became a face. Then when he got closer to the WWE title he started to get worse. He stopped doing some of the things that got him there in the first place. Now, he just seems to be some generic face. There's nothing special about him anymore.

I think Cena's more like Hogan than Stone Cold. Or some combination of The Rock, Stone Cold, and Hogan, which doesn't work well either.
Yeah, a mix of all three works, but I'd put Austin on top, seeing as IMO, WWE's molding Randy to be the new "Rock" (third-generation star, was booed during initial run, works best at one setting than another, has a great selection of moves to get the crowd's attention, has a gimmick that gets over well, etc.).

And plus, unlike Hogan and Goldberg, neither Cena OR RKO demand that they win every match they return to (for Terry and Bill have creative control over their characters)...

Edited by wwfpooh, 28 July 2006 - 09:54 AM.


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Posted 28 July 2006 - 10:00 AM

RANDY! -sorry, I really like Randy Orton-

You forget the other link between Randy and the Rock - they both rock (no pun intended).

Cena is like Austin in the fact its all about the marketing from a WWE point of view - and those two have probably brought in more money than any other WWE Superstar in history.