31 replies to this topic

[Lenin]

The most overrated wrestler ever. Bar none. He's a good wrestler, but it pisses me off to no end when people talk about Kurt Angle as one of the best ever. People highlight his "great technical" skills or his "great mat" skills. When was the last time you actually saw Kurt Angle have a mat wrestling match? He is a guy that has been living off the same formula since 2003 - he is a spotfest wrestler, make no mistake, just with a technical wrestler gimmick. Every match is so formulaic and people buy into it so much because of his gimmick, it's crazy, because everyone is essentially being worked by the bookers into thinking he's better than he actually is.

Don't get me wrong, he's had some great matches, but I probably wouldn't even put him in the top ten wrestlers this decade.

The only people who I think can justifiably say Kurt Angle is a great wrestler are those that love overblown finisher sequences with lots of nearfalls, when IMO that's just an easy way to get a good reaction.

It is amazing that someone like Cena is rightly or wrongly accused of being a one-trick pony with regards to his matches whereas Angle is a hero to smart fans. Watch the best Cena matches of the last 5 years and watch the best Angle matches of the last 5 years and tell me which ones are more similar to the others. This is not even going into the fact that, once you realise how formulaic and phoned in most of Angle's matches are, you realise that Cena has had more good matches than Angle has over the past few years.

It's getting to the point where Angle is a better personality than wrestler. Like I said, between 2000 and 2003 he was an AMAZING wrestler, but after that he has been, quite frankly, a lazy spotfest wrestler who is put over as a technical talent when in reality he isn't.

[Makaveli]

lol, i'll bite.

whats your top 10 then if kurt isn't included

[Lenin]

Makaveli, on 27 May 2010 - 01:01 PM, said:

lol, i'll bite.

whats your top 10 then if kurt isn't included

Perhaps top 10 was a bit far, but I'll give it a shot. Purely in terms of in-ring capabilities and off the top of my head:

Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Bryan Danielson, Undertaker, John Cena, Low Ki, Samoa Joe, HBK, AJ Styles.

(EDIT: Actually, I'm taking Eddie out of there, because I'm sure there's been better wrestlers this decade and can easily see why someone would put Angle over him)

Let's also bear in mind I said this decade - the main purpose of the rant was that Angle isn't anywhere near the top wrestlers ever. Although I do stand by what I say about not being in the top 10 this decade.

It doesn't help the fact that one of Angle's two "best" WWE matches in the eyes of most fans (the Wrestlemania match against HBK) is overrated to hell. If you take those 3 truly great years away from Angle (2000/2001/2002) you have a guy that is a good wrestler, but nothing special. After 2005 you have a distinctively average wrestler stuck in the same match for years.

If three great years is justification for him being the best wrestler of the last decade, we might as well throw Triple H in that list as well, as he had a period (2000/2001) where he was on top of the world (better than Angle was during this time) and unlike Angle hasn't become completely repetitive yet.

Edited by Lenin, 27 May 2010 - 01:52 PM.

[DLT]

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in terms of in-ring capabilities and off the top of my head:

Rey Mysterio

Hahahahahahahahahahaha....

*re-reads*

...ahahahahahaha!

[Lenin]

Demon Lord Tyrus, on 27 May 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

Quote

in terms of in-ring capabilities and off the top of my head:

Rey Mysterio

Hahahahahahahahahahaha....

*re-reads*

...ahahahahahaha!

Nice input, however, a lot (/most) of Angle's best matches came during the SmackDown six era, of which Rey was a part of and putting on great matches with him. In the summer of 2009 to today (approximately one year) Rey has had more good matches than Angle has in his entire TNA run. Rey has had tonnes of unsung TV matches which were amazing (Punk in February, Eddie in 2004, Matt Hardy in 2003, Eddie in 2005, Orton the night after Wrestlemania).

He's crisp, he can wrestle against a variety of opponents (whether big or small) and put on a varied match, whereas Angle doesn't change his style for any wrestler he faces (taking away The Undertaker). Aside from 2 years this decade (one of which he was injured for most of) he has been extremely consistent and original matches, whereas Angle has been average for years.

Edited by Lenin, 27 May 2010 - 02:11 PM.

[Socom]

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whats your top 10 then if kurt isn't included

Man he must have a awesome top 10 if he thinks Angle is overrated. I always thought HBK was overrated TBH.

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Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Bryan Danielson, Undertaker, John Cena, Low Ki, Samoa Joe, HBK, AJ Styles. John Cena

[Lenin]

Socom, on 27 May 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

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whats your top 10 then if kurt isn't included

Man he must have a awesome top 10 if he thinks Angle is overrated. I always thought HBK was overrated TBH.

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Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Bryan Danielson, Undertaker, John Cena, Low Ki, Samoa Joe, HBK, AJ Styles. John Cena

So do you actually have an argument like using evidence to present your case or do you just have pictures? Care to contest in a reasonable manner, for example? It's no wonder discussion on this forum is dead.

HBK is a bit overrated, yes, I wouldn't consider him to be in the best ever but I would put him in the top 10 for this decade.

Let's look at Cena for example. Cena vs. Angle at No Mercy (?): great match because it's controlled by Cena. Cena vs. Angle at No Way Out: great match because of Cena's selling. Cena vs. Angle at Unforgiven: mediocre match that's just another part of Angle's spotty formula. The former two were much more Cena matches than Angle matches.

Angle might know more holds but Cena has legitimately better matches. Angle's best may be better, but Cena is far more consistent, especially over the past few years its a no contest.

Edited by Lenin, 27 May 2010 - 03:15 PM.

[Socom]

I don't have a clue what Cena is like now because I don't watch WWE, but when I did watch WWE Cena was the same old shit each week, day in and out. Same moves, same finish and to me he was boring. Just boring,I used to call him Superman back in the day because nobody could beat him. Cena can actually survive a nuke. The thing is, he is so predictable and I just got sick of seeing him holding the title, wining matches and wining a match using the same moves. Sure its a way to get him to become "LOL BEST WRESTLER LOLOLOL" but it didn't work of me. Take one time, I was watching the Royal Rumble and Cena was number 30, so I turned it off because I knew that he was going to win and shock, surprise guess who won superman Cena.

Now Kurt Angle has had some great matches this year take Lockdown for example Kurt Angle made it look awesome and has been my favorite match this year IMO.

Edited by Socom, 27 May 2010 - 03:21 PM.

[Lenin]

Socom, on 27 May 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

I don't have a clue what Cena is like now because I don't watch WWE, but when I did watch WWE Cena was the same old shit each week, day in and out. Same moves, same finish and to me he was boring. Just boring,I used to call him Superman back in the day because nobody could beat him. Cena can actually survive a nuke. The thing is, he is so predictable and I just got sick of seeing him holding the title, wining matches and wining a match using the same moves. Sure its a way to get him to become "LOL BEST WRESTLER LOLOLOL" but it didn't work of me. Take one time, I was watching the Royal Rumble and Cena was number 30, so I turned it off because I knew that he was going to win and shock, surprise guess who won superman Cena.

Now Kurt Angle has had some great matches this year take Lockdown for example Kurt Angle made it look awesome and has been my favorite match this year IMO.

The Lockdown match was excellent, and probably the best TNA match of the year, and better than anything Cena has done this year (despite the fact Cena has been in several very good matches this year). It's also one of Angle's only great matches for years.

What is bizarre is that you call Cena repetitive, when in my original post:
"t is amazing that someone like Cena is rightly or wrongly accused of being a one-trick pony with regards to his matches whereas Angle is a hero to smart fans. Watch the best Cena matches of the last 5 years and watch the best Angle matches of the last 5 years and tell me which ones are more similar to the others. This is not even going into the fact that, once you realise how formulaic and phoned in most of Angle's matches are, you realise that Cena has had more good matches than Angle has over the past few years."

The reason Angle/Anderson was a great match was because it diverted from the Angle formula and it actually benefited from that. You'd be hard pressed to find many Kurt Angle matches that are different from each other in TNA, not including that one.

And judging by your post, you actually don't hate Cena - you hate how he's booked, to win. Even though if you actually watched WWE these days (by which, I'd question your ability to judge something as vast as best wrestler of the decade if you haven't seen a fair portion of what I'm discussing [my wrestlers list came from WWE, TNA, and anything I can catch on TWC] and if you just dislike Cena because of how he's booked and not his ability to have a good match), you'd see that Cena actually has excellent matches.

There's more to a wrestling match than just the finish, and I think that Kurt Angle fans especially must neglect this for the Angle formula of "how to make my finishers look shit, overkill a finish, disregard the 20 minute filler beforehand but **** it we got loads of nearfalls - MOTY"

Edited by Lenin, 27 May 2010 - 03:36 PM.

[Socom]

To me in a match I like to see a range of moves used and good finish of the match. But Cena is just to meh to me nothing interests me about him and his matches. I just don't like Cena, I don't see what so good about him. No in this argument I'm not saying Kurt Angle is the best wrestler, I'm stating my views on Cena. He's not special to me, I have more of a chance in taking Goldust seriously.

Edited by Socom, 27 May 2010 - 03:43 PM.

[1967 Spidey]

Are you mad?

Take into account Kurt isn't the guy he was in 2003, because his neck is pretty much ****ed. Kurt can put on a good match with anyone. Plus, to say every match is formulatic is stupid, considering every ******* wrestling match goes by the same basis: Shine, Switch, Heat, Shine, Heat, Comback, False Finishes, Finish. Thats how a wrestling works. Maybe not in the indentical order, but it is like that. Your also telling me guys like HHH, Mysterio and RVD don't have formulaic matches? I bet if you watch every preformers matches you can link them all in some way.

Kurt on average gets to wrestle for about 10 minutes a week and about 25 on a PPV. Kurt has to fit in his usual spots, his opponents spots, the heat, the comeback, the finish into 10 minutes. Only thing he can do is mix up the spots and change the finish. Fact is nobody will remember what you did last week, so you can have the same match for one week then rearrange it. I bet you thats what all these guys do when they tour and do house shows. If he did new shit every match then his matches would be rushed since they have to fit the essentials in.

Your telling me his match with Nagata is the boring? **** no. That match was awesome. He got a great match out of Abyss, which he hasn't ben able to do since he fought AJ in 2004 at Lockdown. Angle is gifted. The fact your trying to justify Cena being a better preformer than Angle is ******* hilarious.

The thing i hate about Cena is he will go through an hour match where he is beat to shit to a superman comeback then no-sells the matche hen he wins. John, didn't Randy just beat the shit out of you for 40 minutes? How can i believe what just happened is real (whcih is there job) if Cena walks around like Orton jobbed to him? I can't. Which is why Cena is a horrible seller. Charisimatic as hell and a great worker, but still a horrible preformer.

Kurt can also work a crowd to his choosing. Look how over he was a as a heel when he was in the MEM, and look how over he is now as a face. He is marketable still, and always has been. He is a natraul born talker and athlete. Nobody can tell me otherwise.

[Lenin]

Die Brüderschaft, on 27 May 2010 - 03:55 PM, said:

Are you mad?

Take into account Kurt isn't the guy he was in 2003, because his neck is pretty much ****ed. Kurt can put on a good match with anyone. Plus, to say every match is formulatic is stupid, considering every ******* wrestling match goes by the same basis: Shine, Switch, Heat, Shine, Heat, Comback, False Finishes, Finish. Thats how a wrestling works. Maybe not in the indentical order, but it is like that. Your also telling me guys like HHH, Mysterio and RVD don't have formulaic matches? I bet if you watch every preformers matches you can link them all in some way.

RVD has formulaic matches and has done since about 2002, he's well past his best. Triple H does to an extent but at least in big matches he can mix it up a bit. Rey Mysterio went through a phase in 2007-2008 when he phoned in a lot of performances and was pretty disappointing, but every other point in his WWE career he's been exceptional: to show how many good matches he has, you just have to look at the TV matches he's been in that are great: Orton in 2006; Eddie in 2005/2004; Hardy in 2003; everyone in 2009; Punk in February - all different matches. In terms of week to week commitment you won't find many better than Mysterio.

Kurt on average gets to wrestle for about 10 minutes a week and about 25 on a PPV. Kurt has to fit in his usual spots, his opponents spots, the heat, the comeback, the finish into 10 minutes. Only thing he can do is mix up the spots and change the finish. Fact is nobody will remember what you did last week, so you can have the same match for one week then rearrange it. I bet you thats what all these guys do when they tour and do house shows. If he did new shit every match then his matches would be rushed since they have to fit the essentials in.

Your telling me his match with Nagata is the boring? **** no. That match was awesome. He got a great match out of Abyss, which he hasn't ben able to do since he fought AJ in 2004 at Lockdown. Angle is gifted. The fact your trying to justify Cena being a better preformer than Angle is ******* hilarious.

The thing i hate about Cena is he will go through an hour match where he is beat to shit to a superman comeback then no-sells the matche hen he wins. John, didn't Randy just beat the shit out of you for 40 minutes? How can i believe what just happened is real (whcih is there job) if Cena walks around like Orton jobbed to him? I can't. Which is why Cena is a horrible seller. Charisimatic as hell and a great worker, but still a horrible preformer.

Kurt can also work a crowd to his choosing. Look how over he was a as a heel when he was in the MEM, and look how over he is now as a face. He is marketable still, and always has been. He is a natraul born talker and athlete. Nobody can tell me otherwise.

Again, all of Angle's stuff follow the EXACT same formula. He's been wrestling the same match for years. What you call a great match with Abyss I call an average match which is just as stale as every Angle match since Undertaker (excluding one match with AJ and a couple with Joe). Kurt can put on his formula with just about everyone, but that doesn't make him a great worker, that just shows how dependent he is on it and how much his fans fall for it every time.

Take the Angle Slam for example, it's not even a finisher anymore because it's been watered down so much but people buy it as such because he's just over. It's not credible. Same can be said, somewhat, with the ankle lock: he locks it in loads of times before it actually gets the submission, so instead of sticking to in-ring psychology and making himself look good he just tries to force epic matches, which just fall flat IMO after seeing them so many times.

I don't care if his neck is ****ed, harsh as it is. If a match is rubbish, it's rubbish, and I'm not going to change my opinion that much just based on how bashed up the wrestler is.

John Cena has had more good matches in the past few years than Angle has had in the same amount of time. It's not even close. Take since Angle joined TNA - there's about four matches that I consider to be very good/great. Cena had that many in one year (2007). There's very few unentertaining Cena matches ever, IMO, he's a terrific worker. Yes he might no sell occassionally, but so does Angle. Remember HBK vs. Angle from Wrestlemania 21? Angle goes through what must have been 25 minutes of wrestling at the point, HBK goes onto the top rope and Angle just gets up and SPRINTS onto the top rope to do an angle slam, forgetting he was even in a match.

And think how many times Angle does that? Every single match, without fail he will get up quickly and run to the top rope to do a move.

It's not just the 10 minute matches that are the same though (although if you think 10 minute matches cannot vary, you're vastly mistaken) - it's every single major match he's had for years goes through the exact formula of finisher reversals, nearfalls for the sake of nearfalls and the same spots again and again. Kurt Angle is nothing more than a spot wrestler given a technical gimmick so people believe he's better than he actually is. And credit to him and TNA, they're doing a good job of making people believe that.

Edited by Lenin, 27 May 2010 - 05:50 PM.

[Socom]

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Angle just gets up and SPRINTS

Cena gets the ****ed kicked out of him for like 20 minutes, then he could have his head chopped off and his body disappears and he would still come back and win the match. Same again can be said for Cena. You see that angle just quickly gets up? Cena gets his ass handed to him in each match then quickly hits his 6 moves on wins. Cena performing wise is crap, he is boring to watch for stop. At least Angle can make you believe, Cena fails at that. How in this world is a FU going to hurt, how is does a human comeback from a ass whooping. You say that Cena has had all these good matches and I'm yet to see a match from Cena which I can say "I enjoyed that". Cena is a lot more overrated then Angle. Cena is just a wrestle that fails to make wrestling look real.

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Take the Angle Slam for example, it's not even a finisher anymore because it's been watered down so much but people buy it as such because he's just over.

Compare to Cena lets take a look shall we. Five Knuckle Shuffle, is just a complete joke. It is just a watered down punch which looks likes it missed, followed by a simple fireman carrys which looks about has affect as a feather. A people buy it because it gets the 1...2...3. When I'm watching Cena (which is rare because paint is more fun drying)you know if Cena is getting beaten he's won the match.

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Same can be said, somewhat, with the ankle lock: he locks it in loads of times before it actually gets the submission, so instead of sticking to in-ring psychology and making himself look good he just tries to force epic matches, which just fall flat IMO after seeing them so many times.

You do know that matches are fixed right, and if Angle was to make people submit straight away it would make them look weak to the fans. It's not Angles fault, it makes the wrestler in the ankle lock look strong. Imagine if Angle got Austin in the ankle lock and he just tapped out straight way, it would make Austin look weak.

[Lenin]

Socom, on 27 May 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:

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Angle just gets up and SPRINTS

Cena gets the ****ed kicked out of him for like 20 minutes, then he could have his head chopped off and his body disappears and he would still come back and win the match. Same again can be said for Cena. You see that angle just quickly gets up? Cena gets his ass handed to him in each match then quickly hits his 6 moves on wins. Cena performing wise is crap, he is boring to watch for stop. At least Angle can make you believe, Cena fails at that. How in this world is a FU going to hurt, how is does a human comeback from a ass whooping. You say that Cena has had all these good matches and I'm yet to see a match from Cena which I can say "I enjoyed that". Cena is a lot more overrated then Angle. Cena is just a wrestle that fails to make wrestling look real.

Considering you obviously haven't seen a Cena match for four years, I can't really take this part seriously. Especially if you think it's as basic as "he hits his 6 moves and wins". No, he starts his sequence of moves, just like someone like Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels did - and like Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart he mixes it up, often the opponent will counter after the 5 knuckle shuffle or the powerbomb, and then the finishing sequence continues. Very rarely these days, in matches that last over 5 minutes has Cena ever just ended a match with the 6 moves. Not since 2006 anyway. But before 2006 and after 2006 he's hardly ever done it.

Well, you haven't watched Cena in years, so it's no wonder you haven't enjoyed him. Personally, I think it's ludicrous to say he hasn't had an enjoyable match ever. I can give you loads before he even won the WWE Title that were great, like his matches against Kurt Angle (pre-Wrestlemania 21 where he was most certainly not carried and therefore had a good match) or Undertaker (same again). Then there's matches against Umaga, Edge, Triple H & Edge, Randy Orton, Triple H (the NoC match). The guy pulled out a decent match with Khali for ****'s sake.

My point about Angle running up the ropes is that he no sells, and it's just as much as Cena when the finishing sequence hits in (if not more). Cena hardly ever just finishes a match with "just 6 moves" and if you actually watched a Cena match anytime without your "We Hate Cena" T-Shirt on you'd see that.

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Compare to Cena lets take a look shall we. Five Knuckle Shuffle, is just a complete joke. It is just a watered down punch which looks likes it missed, followed by a simple fireman carrys which looks about has affect as a feather. A people buy it because it gets the 1...2...3. When I'm watching Cena (which is rare because paint is more fun drying)you know if Cena is getting beaten he's won the match.

The five knuckle shuffle was never a finisher though, that's my point. The Angle slam was, and is now a transition move just to get a near fall. Cena never covers after the five knuckle shuffle. Lots of finishers look shit, look at the People's Elbow or the Leg Drop, it doesn't matter how finishers look as long as the fans buy it and they're credible. Which the AA is.

Seriously, I can't even take this very seriously anymore because you basically sound like one of those youtube commenters who don't know what they're talking about because they haven't seen him. If you haven't seen him, how can you judge him?

I've watched about 5 matches by the wrestler KENTA in my life, and I loved them all - should he be wrestler of the decade even though I haven't seen the rest of the decade? I've no doubt he's a good wrestler, but it's possible (albeit unlikely) that all the others are terrible.

Um, no you don't know he's going to win. Thats why his opponents get believable near falls in matches. That's one of the beauty's about Cena vs. Umaga. Everyone knows WWE isn't going to put the title on Umaga, but during the match you think he is.

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You do know that matches are fixed right, and if Angle was to make people submit straight away it would make them look weak to the fans. It's not Angles fault, it makes the wrestler in the ankle lock look strong. Imagine if Angle got Austin in the ankle lock and he just tapped out straight way, it would make Austin look weak.

No, making them submit to a credible move doesnt make anyone look bad. That's why anyone who tapped to the Crippler looked good, or the Sharpshooter. People knew that it was generally the end and people only got out of them in the truly big matches (i.e. Benoit vs. Angle or Bret vs. Undertaker). It's not about tapping straight away, it's about holding out a bit, struggling but having to tap out. The Ankle lock is countered every single time, and wrestlers hold out for upwards of 2/3 minutes in it (Brock, Michaels, Joe) to name a few. That just makes it look weak. It hardly even makes his opponents look strong "oh look he's in the ankle lock for ages but everyone can do that so it's no biggie". It's similar to my point about the Angle Slam, if people just kick out all the time, how is it a big deal when someone kicks out of it? It's not.

Ever thought about Wrestlemania 13? Why Austin looked so damn strong in defeat whereas guys like Samoa Joe didn't in his match with Angle? Because Bret's submission hold was the best. It finished every match and Austin didn't submit. Conversely, Joe being in the ankle lock for minutes should be enough to make him look great, but it doesn't, especially when it's always being countered as part of Angle's formula.

It's like when someone kicks out of the Tombstone or the Pedigree - they're such protected finishers that when someone does do it (i.e. Kane, Jeff Hardy or even HBK at Wrestlemania 25), it's a huge deal and makes them look great in defeat and can make their careers (in the case of Kane and Hardy)

[Socom]

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Seriously, I can't even take this very seriously

It's only the internet don't take it seriously.

You do know this all personal opinion none of this is pure fact so I find it a pointless argument. If I'm a youtube user then what the hell are you. I feel like I'm arguing with someone who has a WWE universe account. Your comparing a bad actor wrestler to a Olympic gold medalist. The FU fails to make Cena look great. This argument is stupid fact being You like Cena and I can't stand him. I don't give a toss if he has but on good matches because it will not change my view on him. Because a wrestler buts on a good matches does not mean I have to like him. It does not change my view on him. Your not a fan of Kurt Angle thats fine and I'm not fan of Cena. See how this argument is pointless. Kurt Angle won gold medals from using wrestling skill not reading a script.

Edited by Socom, 28 May 2010 - 06:14 AM.

[Lenin]

Socom, on 28 May 2010 - 06:04 AM, said:

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Seriously, I can't even take this very seriously

It's only the internet don't take it seriously.

You do know this all personal opinion none of this is pure fact so I find it a pointless argument. If I'm a youtube user then what the hell are you. I feel like I'm arguing with someone who has a WWE universe account. Your comparing a bad actor wrestler to a Olympic gold medalist. The FU fails to make Cena look great. This argument is stupid fact being You like Cena and I can't stand him. I don't give a toss if he has but on good matches because it will not change my view on him. Because a wrestler buts on a good matches does not mean I have to like him. It does not change my view on him. Your not a fan of Kurt Angle thats fine and I'm not fan of Cena. See how this argument is pointless. Kurt Angle won gold medals from using wrestling skill not reading a script.

Discussions are not pointless, they help broaden the mind and see things from other perspectives. Now when someone is being narrow minded like you are, and instantly hating anything that has anything to do with Cena without real justification or evidence (I've yet to see an example of a Cena match where he hits 6 moves and wins, for example, excluding early 2006). I give all these examples of Cena matches that are good, Angle matches which are bad, while also recognising the good he does (ie. against Anderson) and you don't even respond to them. So with an attitude like that, yes it is pointless. And with an attitude like that, it's no wonder the wrestling section (and quite frankly most other sections) on this forum have gone to shit.

If you can't even bring yourself to change your view even if he has good matches, then the argument is a non-starter and you just come across as very narrow minded and stubborn. If a wrestler puts on good matches, regardless of his character (**** it, I hate Cena's character but his wrestling skill is damn good), then you're not giving that wrestler the credit he deserves.

Interestingly, when was the last time Kurt Angle ever showed his amateur skill in a match? 2003 or 2002 probably at most, so your point about the olympics is a bit nonsensical.

Edited by Lenin, 28 May 2010 - 06:32 AM.

[DLT]

I don't care much for Kurt, I've mostly forgotten what he was like since he left WWE anyway, it was just the Rey comment that made me laugh,

Rey Mysterio knows three, maybe 4 moves. Watch any Rey Mysterio match since about 2005? Maybe earlier, all he ever does is; Kick people in the leg, axe handle people to either the leg, back, and occasionally the arm, do a seated senton, and the 619. All his matches are like this, with no exception, he'll do the few punches/kicks and sentons, get beaten down for 5-20 minutes (depends how long the match is), then, assuming he's booked to win like he almost always is, he'll no sell every injury he's sustained the rest of the match, pelt across the ring and hit a 619.

Rey is one of the worst wrestlers in WWE in recent memory, as far as I'm concerned.

[Lenin]

Demon Lord Tyrus, on 28 May 2010 - 06:32 AM, said:

I don't care much for Kurt, I've mostly forgotten what he was like since he left WWE anyway, it was just the Rey comment that made me laugh,

Rey Mysterio knows three, maybe 4 moves. Watch any Rey Mysterio match since about 2005? Maybe earlier, all he ever does is; Kick people in the leg, axe handle people to either the leg, back, and occasionally the arm, do a seated senton, and the 619. All his matches are like this, with no exception, he'll do the few punches/kicks and sentons, get beaten down for 5-20 minutes (depends how long the match is), then, assuming he's booked to win like he almost always is, he'll no sell every injury he's sustained the rest of the match, pelt across the ring and hit a 619.

Rey is one of the worst wrestlers in WWE in recent memory, as far as I'm concerned.

Watch his match with Morrison in the summer of last year. His match with Punk last week, his match with Punk in February, his matches with Ziggler, Undertaker - all in the last year and he does at least 10 different moves in each one. He's a small guy, he's meant to be the guy that sells and makes the other guy look great. He is portrayed as someone resourceful enough to get a win and stay in a match without dominating. Think Shawn Michaels and Mr Perfect, neither of them were even good wrestlers when it came to dominating a match, they were great at making their opponent look great and that's it.

Considering Mysterio has had more good matches than anyone in the last decade (Danielson excluded), I think it's a silly point anyway about knowing just 5 moves, or something. Look at the amount of great TV matches he's had:
the SmackDown six in 2002, Hardy in 2003, Lesnar in 2003, Eddie in 2004/2005, Orton in 2006, and just about everybody he faced last year including Dolph, Morrison, Punk, Batista. He's had more good TV matches than anyone I can remember, and this isn't even going into his PPV stuff.

If you don't like his no-selling (a term which I'd use lightly as Rey ALWAYS sells his injuries, even if he's running), then you must surely not like Shawn Michael's matches - he doesn't use many moves, does a kip-up and no sells his injuries. Same with Mr. Perfect (to an extent).

When was the last time you saw a bad Rey Mysterio match? Seriously? Look at his stuff this year with Luke Gallows, for example, just simple free TV and he pulls of very enjoyable matches. He's probably only behind Christian in terms of consistency over the past year.

Edited by Lenin, 28 May 2010 - 06:42 AM.

[DLT]

I can't remember seeing a good Mysterio match. Seriously, what other moves does he do than kicks/double axe handles/seated sentons and the 619?

[1967 Spidey]

Demon Lord Tyrus, on 28 May 2010 - 01:05 PM, said:

I can't remember seeing a good Mysterio match. Seriously, what other moves does he do than kicks/double axe handles/seated sentons and the 619?

Matches aren't good due to moves. Matches are good based on physcology, timing, crowd interaction and suspense. Reys matches with Eddie in 2005 were shit hot, and his recent series with Punk has been great. Not to mention his off and on matches with Morrison. Rey can work a crowd, Rey can sell and get sympophy (which builds to the huge pop he gets on his comeback).

Now on to Lenin.

I see what your saying about the false finishes, but this is one of the reasons i don't like them being used in America. Finishers are finishers in America, and an average wrestler has about 2 finishers. Kurt can only use both the Angle Slam and the Ankle Lock in false finishes since it adds suprise (what a false finish should do). If he used a German Suplex you know the guys kicking out. In Japan, (where they were mos used before Johnny Ace brough them into American booking), it was believable for someone to beat someone with a German Suplex even if it wasn't thier finisher, because the way the sport is over there. Misawa won alot of matches with elbows, even though technically his finishers were the Emerald Flowsion and Tiger Driver. Puro is treated like shoot wrestling over thier, so a variation of moves can be used to legit end matches, which helps with the shok factor of a flase finish.

I can name 6 great matches Kurt has had in the past year easily. vs. AJ (all matches), vs. Desmond Wolfe (all matches), vs. Anderson (all matches). tahts easily 8 matches. Now lets not forget his matches with Joe, with Sting, with Christian among others. Watch all those matches, and tell me he can't work. His matches with Wolfe were some of the best TNA have ever put on.

I can't stress enough that every wrestler has the same formula. None of Angles matches are identical. His matches with Wolfe and Anderson were completely different. His matches with Foley and AJ were completely different. You need the same spots to build familarity with the crowd, which helps with heat building and comeback.

Cena is a world-class worker, but a horrible preformer. Kurt is a great worker, and a great preformer. Kurts matches are better than Cenas. End of that dicussion.

I don't see how you can call Kurt a spot monkey when the only spotty thing he does is a moonsault, which he rarely uses. Alot of his matches rely on Suplexs and Bodylocks. Technical essintials there. Kurt can throw a German like nobody else can aswell as preform flawless Belly-to-bellys. Kurt is a world class technician. Up there with Beniot, Eddie and Malenko.

[DLT]

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Matches aren't good due to moves. Matches are good based on physcology, timing, crowd interaction and suspense. Reys matches with Eddie in 2005 were shit hot, and his recent series with Punk has been great. Not to mention his off and on matches with Morrison. Rey can work a crowd, Rey can sell and get sympophy (which builds to the huge pop he gets on his comeback).

Thats not entirely true. While atleast 50% of wrestling, if not more, these days is in the sell; the gimmicks, the stories, the acting; the wrestling itself is still important. Put simply, if a wrestler does not wrestle in an entertaining way, a match will rarely be entertaining despite the other factors.

But for the sake of argument, lets look at your other points:
Psychology: I can understand why he appeals to children, but come on, does anyone else really get into the whole "superhero" act? A man who's always the underdog yet always wins. Hell, does the damn stupidity of him always being booked as an underdog despite the fact he almost ALWAYS wins not just annoy anyone else? This is my second most hated fact about Rey, after his lack of moveset, is his character and general booking constantly fighting bigger guys who he "hasn't got a chance against... oh wait, he just won."

Timing: Not entirely sure what specifically you're referring to, timing is a pretty broad term when it comes to a wrestling match. Though I can't remember specifics, which granted makes the point pretty mute because you can only take my word for it, Rey seems to make mistakes quite a bit. Fair enough he is often fighting bigger guys who can't sell his fast moves as easily as smaller guys, but he is hardly a master of execution in physical wrestling ability, atleast not any more.

Crowd Interaction: When does Rey pay any attention to the crowd during his actual matches? I can't remember a time when Rey actually responded to the crowd cheering for him, it doesn't matter how behind him or not they are, his matches always pan out in thhe exact same way. As I said earlier, he gets beaten down for about 90% of the match, yet has one quick come back (which is a drop toe hold and a 619) and wins with one move, and while he might be pretty good a selling a beating and making the other guy look good, we usually call those people jobbers.

Suspence: Do I need to post another "hahaha" post? Rey has the LEAST suspenceful matches ever, its like watching the same superhero movie for the 50th time, you're not on the edge of your seat because you know he's going to win, and the same applies for Rey. Because he wins 90% of all his matches, anyone who's not a total mark (and too young to think about it, aka Rey's fanbase) can easily see that the match isn't over whenever Rey gets pinned, and if they're even just as much of a smark as me, which is very little indeed, they can predict he'll probably win and thus, no suspence.

[1967 Spidey]

I'll give you the those, but i mean't in more general terms, not soley pertaining to Rey. Fact is, if you put asses in seats in this buisness, you will get pushed. Reason why Hogan headlined every company he has ever been in and why Malenko rotted in the lower card. Trust me i would pick a Malenko match over Hogan anyday, but i and the people like me make up about 6% of the wrestling auidence. Even if you can't preform for shit, if you can work a crowd, sell merch and make people come to the shows, you are getting pushed.

Charisma > Ability = Success
Charisma < Ability = Mid-Card or Puro Gaijin

[Lenin]

Die Brüderschaft, on 28 May 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

I see what your saying about the false finishes, but this is one of the reasons i don't like them being used in America. Finishers are finishers in America, and an average wrestler has about 2 finishers. Kurt can only use both the Angle Slam and the Ankle Lock in false finishes since it adds suprise (what a false finish should do). If he used a German Suplex you know the guys kicking out. In Japan, (where they were mos used before Johnny Ace brough them into American booking), it was believable for someone to beat someone with a German Suplex even if it wasn't thier finisher, because the way the sport is over there. Misawa won alot of matches with elbows, even though technically his finishers were the Emerald Flowsion and Tiger Driver. Puro is treated like shoot wrestling over thier, so a variation of moves can be used to legit end matches, which helps with the shok factor of a flase finish.

But the false finishes is what makes people remember Kurt Angle matches. Nothing else in his matches stand out, it's just a bunch of filler before he gets to the finishes. All the matches you listed (AJ, Wolfe, Anderson) were good matches - if you've never seen Angle wrestle before. However, I have and they are very phoned in on the part of Angle. One of the AJ matches was good (the Last Man Standing, I think it was, can't remember too well), the Wolfe match was pretty good but not the classic people tout it as and it was more good because Wolfe's style was a breath of fresh air, and the Anderson cage match was excellent and probably the match of the year so far (assuming Undertaker and HBK were never born of course). That's three matches I'll give you, the others weren't anything special. Whereas Cena in that same amount of time has had good matches with Batista (and they were very good matches, with the exception of Over the Limit which was disappointing), and HHH & Michaels at Survivor Series, and a very enjoyable match with Sheamus.

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I can name 6 great matches Kurt has had in the past year easily. vs. AJ (all matches), vs. Desmond Wolfe (all matches), vs. Anderson (all matches). tahts easily 8 matches. Now lets not forget his matches with Joe, with Sting, with Christian among others. Watch all those matches, and tell me he can't work. His matches with Wolfe were some of the best TNA have ever put on.

I can't stress enough that every wrestler has the same formula. None of Angles matches are identical. His matches with Wolfe and Anderson were completely different. His matches with Foley and AJ were completely different. You need the same spots to build familarity with the crowd, which helps with heat building and comeback.

Second Joe match was excellent, but mostly I feel because it was less of an Angle match than a Joe match. The first one was fairly spotty and the 3rd one I just didn't care for at all. Christian match was alright, but neither men were motivated and both men have done much better. Sting I didn't like at all.

I'm not saying he can't work, I'm saying that his work is the same and boring to me. If I'd never seen Angle before, I'd be thinking "this guy is epic" but I have, he's been wrestling the same match for about 5 years now. He never does anything differently, he's got no initiative in the ring - he goes through his motions, gets through the filler, ignores all that and does a finishing sequence. Since the finishing sequence is the last thing you remember, people call it a great match.

With the exception of Wolfe, I'm struggling to think of any matches of Angle's which are exceptionally different from another (excluding certain stipulation matches - as that's obvious).

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Cena is a world-class worker, but a horrible preformer. Kurt is a great worker, and a great preformer. Kurts matches are better than Cenas. End of that dicussion.

I don't see how you can call Kurt a spot monkey when the only spotty thing he does is a moonsault, which he rarely uses. Alot of his matches rely on Suplexs and Bodylocks. Technical essintials there. Kurt can throw a German like nobody else can aswell as preform flawless Belly-to-bellys. Kurt is a world class technician. Up there with Beniot, Eddie and Malenko.

A spot monkey doesn't have to do high flying moves. He does moves that are essentially meaningless in the context of a match. When has a german suplex ever meant something in an Angle match in recent years? When have you ever thought "I know why he's doing this"? He just fills his matches with spots, with no real story being told. He's not a world class technician, or at least he never shows it - he has a technical gimmick but he hardly ever does any moves with any sort of meaning. That's why he's a spot wrestler.

Why is it end of discussion that Kurt matches are better than Cena's? For example, I'd have Cena vs. Umaga over EVERYTHING Angle has done in TNA, bar none. I'd have Cena vs. HBK over pretty much everything too, and Cena vs. Orton. Those 3 are three completely different matches, different strategies (Umaga's match is Cena trying to stay in it, HBK match is a battle of endurance, Orton match is a battle of two superstars who are practically equal). Are Kurt's best matches better than Cena's best? Undoubtedly - the match with Benoit at the Royal Rumble is my second favourite Angle match and the match with Austin at Summerslam is my favourite Angle match and one of the best WWE matches. But Angle from 2001-2003 is a different Angle altogether from the one today. You only have to watch the matches to see that.

Since Cena started getting hated, there is absolutely no doubt that he's busted his ass to put on the best show possible. Give me a Cena match over an Angle match any day of the week because Cena can have a variety of different matches with lots of opponents, while Angle has the same match with everyone. It's not even a case of "hitting his usual spots", because all wrestlers do that. It's just that every match is pretty much the same. Fill in the gap until the false finishes and wait for the plaudits.

Demon Lord: Firstly, if you hate that Rey wins all the time, then take it up with the bookers not Rey - that doesn't change the fact that Rey still puts on awesome matches. When was the last time Rey had a good match? Um, this week? The week before that? He's had loads of good TV matches with Gallows this year, for example. He does absolutely loads of moves, look at all the Wrestlemania 26 match against Punk - its 7 minutes long and he does about 15 moves, as does Punk - and that's barely counting the reversals. Your two moves comment makes you sound very ignorant to what he actually does in the ring. He's EASILY been the best wrestler over the past year. His matches over the summer last year were brilliant, every single week.

Edited by Lenin, 28 May 2010 - 06:58 PM.

[Makaveli]

Christ, I don't have time to read this huge wall of text post war, so I'm going to keep it simple as to why I think Kurt is top 10 of at least this decade (since I only watched from 99-present it wouldn't be fair to talk all-time)..

When I think of the greatest wrestlers since I started watching, I immediately think of Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Brock Lesnar, Shawn Michaels, maybe Jericho, a few others.. Now I think it's fairly dumb to really analyze skill in the ring, since at the end of the day, both guys are out to make each other look as good as they can, without hurting each other, and entertaining the crowd.. that's what Kurt does better than just about anyone. He gets in there, and puts in 110% under any condition.. he'll wrestle a head of lettuce and make it look like a fierce competitor.. the energy he brings is just about as high as it used to be, it's just different.. in 03 he was a calculated mat wrestler, now he comes off more vicious. The appeal in him is that he takes it seriously, he brings a little legitimacy to people who still call it a sport.

I'd say Kurts best days are probably behind him, it was 2000-2005. The only way he can look bad today is because he was so unbelievably good in that era. He wrestled an Ironman match on Smackdown, went to wrestle mania and did 21 minutes with a broken neck.. he was about the only guy who could go from WWE to ECW when it was first revived and not look goofy as hell in there because he was THAT intense in the ring.. I can't speak for much of his TNA run since I only just now started watching it this year, but he seems just as focused as ever, and just had a great match at Lockdown.. and now claims he will have some of his best matches of all-time.. and I have no reason not to believe him based on what I have seen from him in the past. Even so, theres no rule that you have to be a force all ten years to be the best of the decade.. a lot of people think of the 90s and think of The Rock, and he was only around from like 96 and on.. some guys make a bigger impression in 5 years than others do in 10.

Edit: if your going to talk about repetitive match-ups I don't think Rey Mysterio is a good person to name in your top 10.. He's phenomenal but come on, it's basically the same thing every time.. again, not that thats bad.. when 'it ain't broke'... I won't even get into how you managed to list John Cena over Kurt Angle.. and if your gut told you to put Eddie in the list, your whole point looks completely disingenuous... they are on the exact same echelon.. Undertaker post 05 is a total joke, too.

Edit 2: You have to forgive me I'm reading posts after the fact.. I have to negate from my own post though, because at the end of the day, top 10 lists of anything are straight silly, and analyzing the "TECHNICAL SKILLS" of a staged event is absolutely pointless.. you sound like your basing it on in-ring psychology and not skill. Angle is pretty much limitless.. and you just don't like his psychology.. and well.. big deal.. you and about 3 other people care about that kind of stuff.. the rest just want to see Kurt Angle be Kurt Angle. Turns out my post wasn't simple and to the point, as it now looks like another unreadable wall of text. Shame on me.

[Lenin]

Makaveli, on 28 May 2010 - 10:22 PM, said:

When I think of the greatest wrestlers since I started watching, I immediately think of Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Brock Lesnar, Shawn Michaels, maybe Jericho, a few others.. Now I think it's fairly dumb to really analyze skill in the ring, since at the end of the day, both guys are out to make each other look as good as they can, without hurting each other, and entertaining the crowd.. that's what Kurt does better than just about anyone. He gets in there, and puts in 110% under any condition.. he'll wrestle a head of lettuce and make it look like a fierce competitor.. the energy he brings is just about as high as it used to be, it's just different.. in 03 he was a calculated mat wrestler, now he comes off more vicious. The appeal in him is that he takes it seriously, he brings a little legitimacy to people who still call it a sport.

But he doesn't put in 100% every match because he's phoned in every performance for half a decade.

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I'd say Kurts best days are probably behind him, it was 2000-2005. The only way he can look bad today is because he was so unbelievably good in that era. He wrestled an Ironman match on Smackdown, went to wrestle mania and did 21 minutes with a broken neck.. he was about the only guy who could go from WWE to ECW when it was first revived and not look goofy as hell in there because he was THAT intense in the ring.. I can't speak for much of his TNA run since I only just now started watching it this year, but he seems just as focused as ever, and just had a great match at Lockdown.. and now claims he will have some of his best matches of all-time.. and I have no reason not to believe him based on what I have seen from him in the past. Even so, theres no rule that you have to be a force all ten years to be the best of the decade.. a lot of people think of the 90s and think of The Rock, and he was only around from like 96 and on.. some guys make a bigger impression in 5 years than others do in 10.

Well for starters, the Wrestlemania 21 and the ironman match are both massively overrated. The Wrestlemania match is so manipulated and forced "epic", while the ironman match is goodness for the first 30 minutes and the second 30 minutes is just 30 minutes of finishers.

I can see why you don't think Angle is repetitive if you have no watched his TNA stuff this year. I already mentioned the Lockdown match.

If you don't have to have all ten years of the decade, a point which I'd probably agree with, I'd even put a couple of other guys in there - i.e. The Rock. 3 years in WWE this decade, but the amount of good matches in this time even outweighs the amount of Kurt Angle's good matches in that time - and that was Angle's best days. 2001 was a great year for Angle but he looks average compared to 2001 Austin. Joe before TNA (and even his first TNA match) blows Angle out the water too, and even Triple H has probably had more great matches than Angle over the decade. Cena too, has been a far better and more consistent performer for years than Angle, unless you fall for Angle's "I hit my moves, you hit yours, then we trade finishers for a while" formula.

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Edit: if your going to talk about repetitive match-ups I don't think Rey Mysterio is a good person to name in your top 10.. He's phenomenal but come on, it's basically the same thing every time.. again, not that thats bad.. when 'it ain't broke'... I won't even get into how you managed to list John Cena over Kurt Angle.. and if your gut told you to put Eddie in the list, your whole point looks completely disingenuous... they are on the exact same echelon.. Undertaker post 05 is a total joke, too.

Undertaker POST 2005? Undertaker PRE 2005 is a shadow of Undertaker now, his best days came over the past few years and he hardly ever puts on a bad match anymore, unless it's with slugs like Big Daddy V and Mark Henry (of which Kurt Angle had an awful match with, so that throws your lettuce analogy out the window). It is stupid to say 2005-present Undertaker is a joke, he's been one of the most consistent performers out there lately.

Rey is not a repetitive wrestler. You'd be hard pressed to find 2 non-stipulation matches with Angle that are vastly different from one another (except vs. Wolfe). Rey has different matches with the same opponent (e.g. against CM Punk this year). That is a ridiculous point that people base off the fact that he wins a lot - then you hate the bookers.

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Edit 2: You have to forgive me I'm reading posts after the fact.. I have to negate from my own post though, because at the end of the day, top 10 lists of anything are straight silly, and analyzing the "TECHNICAL SKILLS" of a staged event is absolutely pointless.. you sound like your basing it on in-ring psychology and not skill. Angle is pretty much limitless.. and you just don't like his psychology.. and well.. big deal.. you and about 3 other people care about that kind of stuff.. the rest just want to see Kurt Angle be Kurt Angle. Turns out my post wasn't simple and to the point, as it now looks like another unreadable wall of text. Shame on me.

The point of the staged event is to portray it as a real sport, and Kurt Angle having the same match over and over is not that. Sure it might be fun for people who are easily manipulated or don't watch him often, but I see it as if I play a video game and I know there's one move I can do repeatedly to win, yeah I'll win but it won't be fun.

Again, I like some Kurt Angle matches, particularly in 2001-2002 when he hadn't whored out his moveset and finishers. I don't think that's enough to warrant him being in a top 10 list for a decade because I think there are people that have had more great matches (like Cena) albeit it over a longer period of time or people like The Rock who had more great matches in a shorter period of time.

Also, if you're hating on Rey for his style of matches, like I said you're hating on guys like Ricky Steamboat, Shawn Michaels, etc. The latter especially as both are similar characters. And to prove that "oh my god, movesets" aren't the end of the world, look at Ricky's best match (against Flair) - he doesn't use many moves at all throughout. So the amount of moves used is, essentially, meaningless.

The fact is, Angle is overrated because of his technical gimmick, while guys like Rey are underrated because they have a child-friendly underdog gimmick. Looking at the actual quality of the matches, there's a clear and obvious winner for me.

Edited by Lenin, 29 May 2010 - 04:07 AM.