14 replies to this topic

[Makaveli]

personal life aside, Benoit was the greatest technical wrestler of all-time. Better than Bret Hart, definitely better than Kurt Angle.. all of them.

[1967 Spidey]

That isn't how you spell Dynamite Kid.

[Ryan]

@ Spidey - yes Benoit modelled himself after Dynamite Kid - almost to the point of replicating him but Benoit surpassed him in his own right for so many reasons.

Dynamite was a real worker and could go with anyone but he had attitude issues and couldn't talk to save his life - which both became his downfall (besides drugs). Benoit was regarded as a nice guy (how it all ended aside) and yes being nice does count towards ability, being open to others makes others open to you - you are easier to work with. Dynamite couldn't put people over respectfully - Benoit could and did his entire career and still managed to become one of the greatest of all time.

As for talking - Benout was never going to have fancy catchphrases and jokes but his intensity rubbed off and gave him an enigmatic charisma. A bit like jeff Hardy in a way - there is no reason to cheer anything Jeff Hardy says but his look and high risk style gets him over in the ring and on the mic. Benoit's intensity in everything he did got him over!

As far as Maka's debate about Benoit being the greatest technical wrestler of all time. I find it hard to argue against Kurt Angle for that, just because of the level he got too. Angle had the advantage on the stick granted - and that is what got him his push, not just wrestling ability alone but Angle can/has put on a clinic with the very best and the very worst. Benoit at times I feel found it difficult against lesser opponents. He could still get anyone over and put on a fine match but compared to Angle, I think Angle edges it ever so slightly. There are just too many Angle matches that go down down as classics compared to Benoit.

One thing is for sure though, Benoit should not be erased from the history books, he's at least in the top 3 greatest pure grapplers of all time and it is always going to be up to debate where he finishes in that top three but in any case excluding him is criminal.

[DTM]

Syc said the exact thing as Maka the other night almost word for word. Kurt Angle is a close second and overall is the whole package but Benoit had skill above anyone in terms of technical wrestling.

[1967 Spidey]

Ryan, on 28 February 2011 - 03:55 AM, said:

@ Spidey - yes Benoit modelled himself after Dynamite Kid - almost to the point of replicating him but Benoit surpassed him in his own right for so many reasons.

Dynamite was a real worker and could go with anyone but he had attitude issues and couldn't talk to save his life

Which is irrelevant to the point. Talking doesn't make you a great 'worker' by todays definition, and it sure doesn't make you a better technical wrestler. Besides, Beniot couldn't cut a promo for shit.

Both men were from different eras. Beniot came in at a time when Junior wrestling was hot, fresh and had a big market in Japan. Dynamite started at a time where junior wrestling had no place in a world dominated by traditional, rasslin' heavyweights. In America that was due to Thesz's influence and Bill Watt's controlling the best territories. In Japan that was due to Inoki. Dynamite was one of the few men who MADE that style. If it wasn't for him and Tiger Mask, there would be no cruiserweights, no X division. I pick Dynamite over Tiger because of their styles. Dynamite was trained in Lancashire style, which is largely about chain grappling and hold for hold, whereas Tiger was more Lucha based, so he depended on flying and striking. Regardless, they trailblazed with that style, and Junior wrestling had a greater acceptance in Japan very quickly.

When Dynamite went to America, it didn't catch on as well. I believe that to be partly because Dynamite had no great junior wrestlers that Japan did, as nearly everyone in the WWF at that point was a 'rassler. When ECW came in and brought in Malenko, Beniot, Eddie, 2 Cold, Mysterio, Psicosis, then it started to gain popularity in America. WCW started the cruiserwight division soon after and brought in the young upstarts from AAA, guys like Juvi, La Parka, as well as signing over ECW's lucha guys. From their it gained acceptance.

Fact of the matter is, Dynamite was years ahead of his time, and did alot more for wrestling than Beniot ever did. When he brought in a hybrid style of wrestling nobody knew of, where as Beniot simply advanced that and mastered it. Dynamite was still a master as Beniot was, and in my opinion more skillful.

[Makaveli]

Like alright, I don't feel like having a huge debate, lol. Benoit being the best ever, I was just speaking for how I felt at the moment. But my overall point is he was way too good for people to pretend he never existed.. I understand hating him as a person or not being able to look at him the same, but he does deserve all the credit in the world for being one of the best technical wrestlers to ever do it.

[Ryan]

@Maka: Agreed.

@ Spidey: *sighs* It isn't like I don't know the history. Fact is, if you ask anyone in the business or read anything by anyone in the business they all say Benoit = better than Dynamite Kid. Maybe stick work isn't important to how good you are in the ring but back then as is now, you had to be able to sell yourself and your matches.

You also make it sound like that there wasn't small wrestlers getting over in Dynamites day, one name Bret Hart - who for much of his early career - saw them shadowing each other around the world. Hart was getting over, Hart was getting pushed - Dynamite? Tag Team fodder. Now I'm not suggesting they had the same style - but you make it sound like Dynamite didn't get over because of his size, which isn't true, there were small guys just the same getting over and doing well at that time. Hell what about Ricky Steamboat?

You make it sound like there was some sort of injustice against Dynamite but there wasn't. Sure he had a great style, sure he could wrestle, sure he was ahead of his time - but Benoit was better at what Dynamite did after Dynamite had been and gone and during Dynamite's day there was wrestlers just the same size who were better at what they did than Dynamite was at what he did.

[1967 Spidey]

I'm not trying say Dynamite had injustice against him, it just didn't work in America as it did in Japan. To be fair, in Japan, there weren't many underweight guys getting over. Some, sure, but none got to the extent he did. Beniot was for sure the better wrestler, but I just feel he did more for the biz than Beniot did, so that's why I choose him.

[Joshua]

Makaveli, on 28 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

Like alright, I don't feel like having a huge debate, lol. Benoit being the best ever, I was just speaking for how I felt at the moment. But my overall point is he was way too good for people to pretend he never existed.. I understand hating him as a person or not being able to look at him the same, but he does deserve all the credit in the world for being one of the best technical wrestlers to ever do it.

Lol, did my new avatar trigger that thought? Anyway, I agree despite the bullshit Benoit was phenomenal and I hate the WWE for what they did to his name...especially because they were the main contributor to Beniots condition due to concussions...it's like they are trying to hide their fuckup.

[Ryan]

You know what I realized... Randy Orton is screwed!

He's the youngest world champion ever in the WWE and the catalogue they own but Randy's moment will never, ever be relived because the WWE will never ever put Benoit in new DVD packages, nevermind show the odd highlight reel of him to get over one of their current stars.

What I'm trying to say is, Randy Orton's "youngest world champion ever" tagline is none existant now and we'll probably never be reminded of the fact because if they mentioned it or re-run it or pack it into a Randy Orton collection on DVD they'd have to show or at the very least mention Benoit. Which isn't going to happen. :\

[Makaveli]

Joshua, on 02 March 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

Makaveli, on 28 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

Like alright, I don't feel like having a huge debate, lol. Benoit being the best ever, I was just speaking for how I felt at the moment. But my overall point is he was way too good for people to pretend he never existed.. I understand hating him as a person or not being able to look at him the same, but he does deserve all the credit in the world for being one of the best technical wrestlers to ever do it.

Lol, did my new avatar trigger that thought?

yeah it did actually

[1967 Spidey]

Joshua, on 02 March 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

Lol, did my new avatar trigger that thought? Anyway, I agree despite the bullshit Benoit was phenomenal and I hate the WWE for what they did to his name...especially because they were the main contributor to Beniots condition due to concussions...it's like they are trying to hide their ****up.

Do you blame them? Sure, Benoit was huge and had alot of accomplishments, but to revere and bring up a man who did what he did is always bad for business. If he doesn't have to be mentioned, then don't. If it's a point like Ryan brought up, then showing footage of him isn't all bad. Just saying 'Randy beat Benoit for the title' doesnt harm you much.

Ryan, on 02 March 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:

What I'm trying to say is, Randy Orton's "youngest world champion ever" tagline is none existant now and we'll probably never be reminded of the fact because if they mentioned it or re-run it or pack it into a Randy Orton collection on DVD they'd have to show or at the very least mention Benoit. Which isn't going to happen. :\

Chances are they'll give it to another talent who is younger then him one day.

[Ryan]

1967 Spidey, on 03 March 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

Ryan, on 02 March 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:

What I'm trying to say is, Randy Orton's "youngest world champion ever" tagline is none existant now and we'll probably never be reminded of the fact because if they mentioned it or re-run it or pack it into a Randy Orton collection on DVD they'd have to show or at the very least mention Benoit. Which isn't going to happen. :\

Chances are they'll give it to another talent who is younger then him one day.

I agree, especially with the youth movement now but it's just laughable that a key moment in WWE history and Randy Orton's career is basically "forgotten." The same goes for the WM moment between Benoit and Eddie, in Joshua's av... You'll never see that on TV again.

I actually hope someone does take the "youngest world champion in WWE history" tagline from Orton though. Not because of anything Orton or the WWE has done but because it would be a huge rub to whoever is given that opportunity. I just don't think there is anyone on the WWE roster (including FCW) good enough and young enough right now.

[Blizzard]

One day, WWE will show Benoit in packages & DVD's. They just have to. Doesn't matter what he did.

[1967 Spidey]

Blizzard, on 03 March 2011 - 06:07 PM, said:

One day, WWE will show Benoit in packages & DVD's. They just have to. Doesn't matter what he did.

No, they won't. To be fair, he wasn't involved in anything major that HAS to be shown. The pinnacle of his career was winning the title at Mania and dropping it to start Orton's career. They can always show Orton celebrating the win to get around it.