102 replies to this topic

[MC Coemgen]

Now, I'm not here to call anyone out, I'm not here to flame anyone, and if anyone does flame this will be locked and deleted. This will be a good discussion so sides can be heard.

People who are offended by HK (smith) because it "represents Nazism" need to relax. It's a symbol that has been used by Nazi's yes, but it has a long history before them of nothing but good will and peace. So people who are insensitive to that need to understand it. It's like if I take the American Flag and say, "Well, America used to have slaves, so I'm going to see that as a form of slavery." I'm just negating all the history of it, for one part of it. Just because it is the most recent history of it being used doesn't mean that its the only history we have to use.

This all has to do with how you interpret the symbol. Lets go back to the American flag, I don't actually take it as a symbol for slavery. So people see it as a symbol of American freedom, I personally see it as a symbol of American political corruption. Does that mean if I see someone with it I'm going to say they support political corruption? No. People interpret things differently, and if you know there side and can understand where he is coming from then it should cause no problems. Yes, the swastika has been used by the Nazi's, but HK was and is not referring to that so I personally see no problem with that.

I'm not here to make the people appose agree with it, but at least I want you to fully understand it. HK took something closely related to a symbol that in recent history has a bad rep, but in the whole history of that symbol it was not used as anything bad until the 20's when Nazism was created. But again, if I see someone with the American flag, I'm not going to accuse them of supporting political corruption just because I personally feel that a lot of that his happening in recent history more than the rest of the American history.

[phoenixsplash630]

Well, the problem with what HK put. Was, that he made it deliberately to piss people off. With all intentions, he wanted it to be the Nazi Swastika. He wanted to offend people. He has told me himslef that he made it to piss people off. Yet, he gets upset by people not liking it, or putting quotes in their sig about it. Whenever someone will argue it with him, he goes off. In what he has now, he has it as the Nazi Swastika. Saying, it didn't happen to you, so it has no effects. Well, it still does. It effected the entire world, to this day. Being half Jewish, my ancestors could have been killed. Also, like the quote in Tasha's sig, it shows that it can have effects even if it didn't happen to you. He also claims that the symbol didn't kill people. That may be true, but it is associated with the killings, just as much as Hitler himself. This is just as bad as having a picture of Hitler in his sig. Sure, the symbol has been used elsewhere. But, like I said, HK had all intentions for it to be the Nazi Swastika. He had all intentions to offend people. He seems to think that because he is a G-Mod, he can do what he wants, and nobody will be offended or something. Which isn't true.

Being half Jewish, I am incredibly offended by this. Think back to what happended in the days of Hitler. People being killed for things they can't change. Doesn't sound good. Now, this symbol. Is associated with those senseless murders. And you guys are saying it's ok to have. To make it even worse, HK made it directly to piss people off. HK, you can deny this, but we both know the truth. HK seems to not care that people are offended. He doesn't seem to care that the symbol was associated with senseless murders. I talked to him about it saying my ancestors were involved, and he said something like, "so, you're ancestors could have been major A**wholes and deserved it." How can anyone deserved being murdered over something they can't change.

What I am saying, is that I find it offensive. Many other members seem to find it offensive too. And, that is what HK wants. He wants it to offend people, which is so wrong. I'd bet, that if a regular member had done this, they would have been warned and had the signature removed in less than a day actually. Having that symbol is just as bad as saying [explitive] Jews! Which is totally wrong.

[MC Coemgen]

This is something I always wondered, please don't take this the wrong way though I don't mean to offended you. But how can someone be half Jewish? Because thats a religion. I'm mean, it seems like that would be like me saying I'm half Catholic because my mom was raised Catholic, but me personally I don't fallow that faith. Sorry, I know this is off topic, but its been on my mind for a long time.

Anyways, when HK said "Maybe they were *******s." He was referring to there personality that could justify the killing, NOT SAYING I AGREE, but it seemed like you misinterpreted that when I was reading threw.

HK purposely picked something close to what the Nazi's used, to help display his new persona he was going threw, a persona with new power, or something like that. Now apparently the swastika in ancient Egypt represented power, which directly cosines with his new persona.

HK saying "This didn't happen to you, so don't be offended" I don't agree with, sorry HK, but I do sort of view that as a douchebag move.

And going back to my first post, this has to do with how you interrupt it. Like you say the swastika didn't kill people but it is associated with killings, same could be argued for the American flag. I mean, this country was basically founded on almost committing a genocide on Native American's or by pushing them off there land. I mean, we gave the Native American's blankets filled with small pox, that we are immune to and they were not just to get some land. And you want to look at it now-a-days, if you rock an American flag, it could be seen as you don't support this country, but instead you support the war and that war is whole other issue of things that are wrong.

Now you are one of the only people I could see being offended by it seeing as you are half Jewish, but I think you need to fully understand it.

EDIT: Oh, and HK's symbol isn't like saying "**** Jew's", that would be like, referring to my fifth paragraph, saying now the American flag stands for "**** arabs" because we are at war killing, I would assume, prominently Muslims.

[King¦Mickey]

tl;dr
if you're offended by someone putting a symbol that resembles one that shouldn't even be offensive to you if you're not Jewish, then you're overly sensitive. This doesn't need to be a huge discussion. If it really just PAINS you to look at HK's sig, there IS the option to turn off sigs on the forum.

[EvilMadness®]

Well in my opinion something bad will probably come as a result of this topic, but it's just a symbol like Devil said it was used before the Nazi's for good well and peace it seems to me that, people should don't worry about this. It will blow over sooner or later hopefully sooner, but if HK wants to use a controversial symbol for the past let him.

Edited by EvilMadness v2.0, 12 July 2008 - 05:01 PM.

[Rabbit]

I, myself am not Jewish even in the slightest. But I am german. So it affects me aswell. Seeing as how your ancestor's friends or family, made such a big mistake that was not needed. My grandpa had to fight for the Nazi's against his will. To me thats something you should not have to do. It's not anything like the wars we have now. Back then Jewish people weren't any threat to the germans. They did it just because of there religion.

Just like Pheonix, HK also told me on msn that he had it in his sig just to piss people off. I stated my opinion on it by saying that it is wrong, and no matter how tilted the sign was, It is still the Swastika. Then what happend you might wonder, well geuss what. He blocked me, just for stating my opinion on it. I'm not here to whine about him blocking me. I'm here to state my opinion. If HK sees this I will probably get a warning just for stating my opinion.

Then to top things off by saying "it didn't happen to you, so it has no effects", that just makes me laugh. That's like telling a black person that because it wasnt them who were slaves, that it shouldnt effect them at all. Of course it still effects them.

[Showtime]

The Jews are a ethnoreligious group... so it would be possible to be half Jewish.

And in the lounge he said this is to represent my new Nazi persona, not my new "power" persona, or whatever you think it means.

Your justification by saying it's the same as the United States flag being perceived as a symbol for slavery doesn't make sense to me. You can't assume that because someone is pro-United States they are pro-slavery. Slavery was just something that happened within the nation, didn't actually make the nation. The Nazis all shared the ideas of racism & antisemitism... So yeah, that symbol carries a bit more to it than the Unites States flag does.

[MC Coemgen]

That comparison was made to show how you look at it. Sure slavery may not be the best one, but it has to do with negating all of the past history and focusing on one period in time. My other two I used though can be accurate. If you interrupt it a certain way, it could stand for government corruption or supporting the war in Iraq.

[phoenixsplash630]

Well devil, it's that my Dad was Jewish, and my mom was Catholic. I did celebrate both of the religions holday's growing up. Hence, half Jewish.

Like said, he didn't make it for a persona, he did it to piss people off. He did make the Swastika one too, but then decided to make The "Egyption Symbol of Power." Still, with the intent to piss people off.

Mickey, Yes I can turn it off. but it's still there really. It's more of a moral thing sort of. I am offended by it though.

Rabbit, I was blocked Four times for argueing with it. I also had racial slurs thrown my way.

Overall, it is wrong for HK to have that in his sig. It is wrong for anyone to be using it really. Especially if you want to piss people off.

[Yournext]

Just out of curiosity, what else did the Swastika stand for?

According to the wikipedia article, its only other use other than nazism is for shamanism. So unless you are a shamanist (buddhist, hindu, etc) I seriously doubt that you are displaying that for anything other than nazism.

I'm not being accusatory, however. I don't believe that you have anything against Jews or anything like that. I just think you didn't realize how offensive it can be, what you're displaying.

Edited by Yournext, 12 July 2008 - 05:31 PM.

[phoenixsplash630]

I think the 345th Infantry used it a while back, but it is most well know with the Nazi's.

And, HK knows just how offensive it is. He has said himself that he did it to piss people off. So he knows how powerful the symbol is.

[H K]

I've decided to change my signature since no one will shut up about it.Be happy,my freedom of expression has been taken from me. This topic has no more use,since its main point of discussion is now gone.

Locked.

[Sergio]

I've only just seen this topic and I have to say that once I have all the facts written out for me to read, I am deeply ashamed. I like to address a few things here.

1. Everyone has a different belief and or opinion about something. When it deals with a swastika, you better damn well believe that people are going to be affected by such a powerful symbol. You have many members and people out there in this world who still have grandparents or great grandparents who suffered because of that symbol. Just because your position on it is that "it's just a symbol" you better damn well respect that it's not just a symbol to someone else.

2. Most importantly, freedom of speech in the USA is only acceptable and a right when it is exercised with great respect. If you want to express yourself in a way that will greatly offend others, then your right is void. I don't have the right to kill nor severely injure someone just because of "freedom." Most teenagers take learning about the constitution and judicial system the wrong way and turn it into poison. They learn about how when you're 18, you're considered a legal adult and so they go on mouthing off to their parents about how they can do what they want, completely forgetting, that in order to do what you want, you have to leave the nest and bust your own ass for the things you want. Being 18 comes with a ton of responsibilities and not just freedom of being an adult. You also get tried as an adult and you also don't have mommy and daddy to be obligated to support you or bust you out of jail. Also, as soon as those teens learn about the 1st amendment, their ears become erect like a dog and so they convince themselves that freedom of speech, petition, etc comes with no price or repercussion. In fact, as I said before, the 1st amendment is only valid as long as you respect others.

3. Putting a swastika in your sig for the sole purpose to offend and piss people off is complete bullshit. I had assumed that the image was flipped because to my understanding, that symbol has a different meaning when it faces a different way. If it faced in the opposite way of the Nazi symbol, then I would let it slide ONLY until I receive complaints about it, which I did. However, the symbol was removed while I was in the process of answering PMs regarding the issue.

4. Someone mentioned that if the symbol bothered you in his signature, the solution would be to disable sigs. That was a very illogical and irrational solution. Why on Earth, should anyone have to disable viewing hundreds of sigs just because of 1?!

5. Devil, I agree with Showtime, and I don't think your analogy of the US Flag to Slavery was close in relation to a Nazi symbol and everything that symbol stood for. The American flag stands for so much more than slavery (which was down south where they had a Confederate flag mind you), but still the US Flag's purpose an intent was not to enslave the entire world. The Nazi symbol stood for many things, all of which were very bad, including genocide.

6.

Quote

Now you are one of the only people I could see being offended by it seeing as you are half Jewish, but I think you need to fully understand it.

My jaw dropped on that line. WTF? It's like you're trying to manipulate him into not being offended because he's ignorant for not understanding the Nazi symbol according to you. Seriously, WTF? I'm very sure he understands that symbol of hate. Trying to make him understand it the way you want to perceive it does not make it any better.

7. I want to ask everyone here how many versions of the swastika were put up? I ask because I keep hearing how it was flipped, not flipped, or slightly tilted. If it was facing the same direction as a true Nazi symbol, I would like to apologize for not taking action immediately. When I first saw one of the incarnations of the symbol, I thought it was flipped to mean something else because I didn't take HK for one to be throwing up such a symbol. I assume that while I have been away, he put up more versions of the symbol. Am I correct?

I'm going to unlock this now because I think it's total BS that it gets locked for people having valid reasons to be against such a filth symbol of hate.

[TyE]

thanks u for unlocking it cause i am like wtf why its locked thats y i posted in the most worthless thread cause i knew he wouldn't lock that topic.

[Jittery Blanket]

I am not entirely sure how many versions, I seen the rotated one and thats it. Either way tho, I believe most percieved it as nazi.

Ive also heard of msn conversations where HK says he's only doing it to piss people off. As in he used history as an excuse to try and justify using it.

And it pissed us off more that he locked topics for no good reason, like he felt we didnt have a right to question it or something.


I don't hate HK but I've lost respect for him.

[Yournext]

Yeah, agreed. Like, even if you don't wear it for a hatred reason...it's like walking around in a KKK outfit because you think it's fashionable.

[Blizzard]

JB, on Jul 14 2008, 01:09 AM, said:

Ive also heard of msn conversations where HK says he's only doing it to piss people off.

I don't hate HK but I've lost respect for him.

I've had something similiar with him. I know what you mean when you say I've lost respect for him.

@ Sergio you mention about freedom off speech in the USA. What about us Australians? Give us a go lol.

[Sergio]

I'm not familiar with the laws in Australia. I've only reflected on the USA's constitutional laws.

[MC Coemgen]

No, its really not yournext. The KKK outfit has always been a symbol for hate, it has always been used like that. The Swastika has been used as many other things. And to go back to your first post where you ask what else has the Swastika been used in. It has been used in architecture and art in many asiain countries and Grecian Rome, it was founded on pottery in basically ancient Eygpt (they refer to it as Kush). In religon it was used in many Asian relgions like Buddism, Hinduism, and Janism, but it was also used in Abrahamic religion which consist of Islamic, Christan, and get this JEUDISM! Look at this little section where it talks about one way it was used in the Jewish faith.

Quote

An unusual swastika, composed of the Hebrew letters Aleph and Resh, appears in the 18th century Kabbalistic work "Parashat Eliezer" by Rabbi Eliezer Fischl of Strizhov, a commentary on the obscure ancient eschatological book "Karnayim", ascribed to Rabbi Aharon of Kardina. The symbol is enclosed by a circle and surrounded by a cyclic hymn in Aramaic. The hymn, which refers explicitly to the power of the Sun, as well as the shape of the symbol, shows strong solar symbolism. According to the book, this mandala-like symbol is meant to help a mystical adept to contemplate on the cyclic nature and structure of the Universe. http://en.wikipedia....sh_swastika.jpg <<pictuer they are referring too.

It has been used in many Asian tradtions, it has been used in Native American traditions. So, as you can see, there is a much longer and wider history then you guys are referring to, and you know what, I could of made this long and even more in depth. And yournext, all of this is I got from the Wikipedia link you posted.

Sergio, on Jul 13 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

I've only just seen this topic and I have to say that once I have all the facts written out for me to read, I am deeply ashamed. I like to address a few things here.

1. Everyone has a different belief and or opinion about something. When it deals with a swastika, you better damn well believe that people are going to be affected by such a powerful symbol. You have many members and people out there in this world who still have grandparents or great grandparents who suffered because of that symbol. Just because your position on it is that "it's just a symbol" you better damn well respect that it's not just a symbol to someone else.

2. Most importantly, freedom of speech in the USA is only acceptable and a right when it is exercised with great respect. If you want to express yourself in a way that will greatly offend others, then your right is void. I don't have the right to kill nor severely injure someone just because of "freedom." Most teenagers take learning about the constitution and judicial system the wrong way and turn it into poison. They learn about how when you're 18, you're considered a legal adult and so they go on mouthing off to their parents about how they can do what they want, completely forgetting, that in order to do what you want, you have to leave the nest and bust your own ass for the things you want. Being 18 comes with a ton of responsibilities and not just freedom of being an adult. You also get tried as an adult and you also don't have mommy and daddy to be obligated to support you or bust you out of jail. Also, as soon as those teens learn about the 1st amendment, their ears become erect like a dog and so they convince themselves that freedom of speech, petition, etc comes with no price or repercussion. In fact, as I said before, the 1st amendment is only valid as long as you respect others.

3. Putting a swastika in your sig for the sole purpose to offend and piss people off is complete bullshit. I had assumed that the image was flipped because to my understanding, that symbol has a different meaning when it faces a different way. If it faced in the opposite way of the Nazi symbol, then I would let it slide ONLY until I receive complaints about it, which I did. However, the symbol was removed while I was in the process of answering PMs regarding the issue.

4. Someone mentioned that if the symbol bothered you in his signature, the solution would be to disable sigs. That was a very illogical and irrational solution. Why on Earth, should anyone have to disable viewing hundreds of sigs just because of 1?!

5. Devil, I agree with Showtime, and I don't think your analogy of the US Flag to Slavery was close in relation to a Nazi symbol and everything that symbol stood for. The American flag stands for so much more than slavery (which was down south where they had a Confederate flag mind you), but still the US Flag's purpose an intent was not to enslave the entire world. The Nazi symbol stood for many things, all of which were very bad, including genocide.

6.

Quote

Now you are one of the only people I could see being offended by it seeing as you are half Jewish, but I think you need to fully understand it.

My jaw dropped on that line. WTF? It's like you're trying to manipulate him into not being offended because he's ignorant for not understanding the Nazi symbol according to you. Seriously, WTF? I'm very sure he understands that symbol of hate. Trying to make him understand it the way you want to perceive it does not make it any better.

7. I want to ask everyone here how many versions of the swastika were put up? I ask because I keep hearing how it was flipped, not flipped, or slightly tilted. If it was facing the same direction as a true Nazi symbol, I would like to apologize for not taking action immediately. When I first saw one of the incarnations of the symbol, I thought it was flipped to mean something else because I didn't take HK for one to be throwing up such a symbol. I assume that while I have been away, he put up more versions of the symbol. Am I correct?

I'm going to unlock this now because I think it's total BS that it gets locked for people having valid reasons to be against such a filth symbol of hate.

1. I know what you are trying to say, but that symbol didn't kill people. Its like saying, "The American flag is at war." Its not a symbol that kills people, its a person that kills people.

2. I'm know for a fact that you can go outside and wear a swastika, hell, my friend said that a bunch of neo-nazi's came into his dad's or uncles restaurant dressed up like that, and wiping there feet on the Jewish flag. Do I agree with that? Of course not, but you can do things like this as long as you don't disturb the peace.

3. I don't agree with why he did it, I'm not trying to justify that. But I've posted a few times of a postcard that was from American in which it has the Swastika the exact same way it was depicted on the Nazi's uniforms and flags ect. ( http://en.wikipedia....wastica1910.jpg ). So, I don't believe that the Swastica turned one way means Nazi or whatever.

4. I feel like I have to comment on every thing, but uh...I honestly don't know.

5. Slavery was everywhere Sergio, I mean in the 50's and 60's where blacks where fighting for their freedom they where exactly home free if they came up north. Because like with what Martin Luther King tried to prove that the south had mainly had De Jure Segregation (by law) and the north had De Facto Segregation (by custom). And in many ways we still have De Facto segregation, but thats a whole other issue. The point I was trying to have before my little tangent is that every place had slaves, every state that we had had slaves. It wasn't just the south. And you seem like you at least understood what I was trying to do with that comparison, so thank you. But then you said the flags intent was not to enslave people, do you think the person that created the Swastika wanted it to be used as it was by Hilter? Point being, that not everything that is intended to be a certain way turns out that way. As far as the Genocide, all I'm going to say is, Native Americans.

6. I'm not trying to say he doesn't know its a symbol for hate, I'm saying he most likely doesn't know the history of it. About where it was used before, how it was used ect. He only knows the part that happened in the most recent history. My thought process behind that was, maybe if he understand that fully he, while may not like it, will at least understand what he is doing with it. That even both of the Faiths he practices used that symbol as good.

7. I think he had three different sigs with that. One was sideways but he changed that quickly, one was the same type of design but not sideways, then the other had the same swastika but it said "It didn't happen to you so it doesn't matter" or something along those lines.

[Yournext]

This forum is based in USA, therefore complies with USA laws. That's why proboards doesn't allow things that other countries may allow.

EDIT: Oops, lol...this isn't proboards...lol Im WAY behind times. But still, whatever is hosting this website, is most likely based in America. That means that American laws are used.

Edited by Yournext, 13 July 2008 - 10:06 AM.

[Sergio]

Devil, all of the other meanings to a swastika hold no bearing against a Nazi one.

You have to understand that that symbol is a very powerful symbol that has left a very strong and impactful bearing on all those who have some connection as a result of Hitler's regime. Many countries, religions, races, people, etc, were affected by Hitler and his symbol. Of course a symbol is not going to kill, but it has depth and meaning and it stands for something. Many Germans fought against their will because either you follow or die. The British & French fought and lost many men to Hitler's cause. Many countries fell, many Jews died, many people were affected and the stories have lived on. Even the Japanese in America were affected because they were quarantined due to Pearl Harbor. The Japanese who attacked us on American soil, were allies to that Nazi symbol. Little did those idiots know, that Hitler would kill them too. Hitler would have probably killed the Italians too despite them feeling so powerful as a ally to Hitler.

The point is, that when you show or mention a swastika, you are treading on thin ice with some people because it is a touchy subject to them. We need to respect them despite our personal feeling. The history of the swastika has 0% to do with what impact Hitler brought to it.

Slavery in the USA, despite it being abolished, is still a touchy subject with many African Americans. They were referred to as "niggers" and they didn't like it. They call themselves niggers amongst each other glorifying the damn word like it's something street, cool, or full of pride. The minute someone who is not black says ******, they start throwing a shit fit because to them, you automatically said it to insult them or the stupidest reason ever from them is that you can't say it because it's offensive regardless of the situation, if you are not black. Anyway, my point is that slavery/discrimination is a touchy subject to a select few still and we have to respect that.

Also, slavery was not exclusive to the USA. It's been around since ancient times. Ask the Jews, ask the Egyptians, ask the Mexicans, ask the Native Americans, ask the Chinese.

Also, the point here is that HK put up the image to piss people off on purpose and there is no reason to bring up the origin of the swastika. It holds no bearing for what was intended by HK. He wasn't trying to educate anyone. If this was being debated before Hitler started his rise to power, then it would be a whole other story because no one would find any offense to the symbol. However, we are living past a time in which the symbol was used for hate, and we must be prepared to understand that it is offensive to certain people.

[Corporal Hicks]

Pretty much everything has been said here from both points, And has been dealt with i believe anyway. But people do really need to chill out, were on a forum on the internet, There is no need to let anything that goes on here get personal.

Gee chill you know.

[O-Yama³]

Sergio, on Jul 13 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

freedom of speech in the USA is only acceptable and a right when it is exercised with great respect. If you want to express yourself in a way that will greatly offend others, then your right is void.

Rightly said and that involves not just the USA might I add.

Sergio, on Jul 13 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

I had assumed that the image was flipped because to my understanding, that symbol has a different meaning when it faces a different way.

Yeah I couldn't get my head around why people were getting upset because if anybody did alittle history on the swastika they'd realise its an ancient religious symbol used long before Hitler came to power. It was used in Buddhist inscriptions, Celtic monuments and Greek coins. In sun god worship, it is supposed to represent the sun's course in the heavens and its also a satanic symbol which I knew.

[Jittery Blanket]

The other history is uncommon knowledge and chances are people arent gonna see a sign that resembles a nazi sign and go look up its history. Majority of people would think its nazi related because that is what is mostly taught about the sign.


Also everybody knows HK was just using the history as a shield, he intended to offend. There for the other history doesnt matter as it is irrelevant to this, it was only brought up to hide the fact the HK wanted to offend.

[Kiyomi Takada]

Well said, JB.