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Who is the most Over-rated wrestler there is. Past or present


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#51 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:28 PM

Done a lot? He won the tag titles a bunch, and the IC title. It's not like he has re-shaped the business.

#52 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:30 PM

View PostPurity, on May 20 2008, 03:52 AM, said:

He doesn't like Jeff Hardy because he's a hater. That's all there is to it. There's really no reason to hate Jeff Hardy, at all. Unless you think that he hasn't worked hard to get where he is (and obviously he messed it up, but he HAS improved, or WWE wouldn't have pushed him as they did. Plain and simple.)

He is by no means a "spot monkey" because he doesn't even do anything that's that impressive, except for take big leaps. A lot of wrestlers take big leaps, and Jeff Hardy's don't always end a match. They're his character, they're to show that he's a not-afraid-of-anything badass who will do what it takes when it's necessary. He takes the risk, even if the bad could, and often does, outweigh the good. Risk vs. reward is all it does. In another thread somebody pointed out how his last few matches weren't won by a huge spot, too.

If you ask me, a real spot monkey is the ones who do the "athletic" flips, jumps, etc. While what they're doing requires more effort... So? It's not that visually appealing, at least, if you have a brain. And what I mean by that is, it's totally and completely unrealistic, there's no reason you would ever do a 450, corkscrew, double moonsault, etc. except to get over. All Jeff does is a half-corkscrew (witw) which makes sense, because he leaps at standing opponents and kicks them with his heel, and the Swanton Bomb is a realistic high flying move in the sense that a leg drop is... It's low risk, it doesn't hurt him as much as a splash move, etc.

Jeff Hardy is not a spot monkey, the only people who hate him are the fans of real spot monkeys, who think that the indy wrestlers who do nothing but impressive flips should be where Hardy is, because Hardy got where he is with his edgy style and looks.

As for most over-rated, although I don't remember much from his early career, I would have to say that Hulk Hogan is vastly over-rated in this day and age. He doesn't do a show unless he's the main event, even though his matches are god awful (unless he has HBK carrying him). All he does is basically what John Cena did (I say did because he, too, is improving) in just hulking up then whipping ass and winning.

And as for your reasoning about Sandman and Sabu... Why is Mick Foley not there if those are your reasons? All you're doing is hating on spotters, but guess what, it's entertaining. Unless you're over analytical, which you are, and that's not a good thing by the way. Spot monkeys are entertaining because it's HOLY SHIT every time (almost, if they do the same thing it's old, but I personally never get sick of seeing people get caned to death). Really, the only person that makes sense in your list is Batista.
Enough said.

#53 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:32 PM

Good to see that you need somebody elses opinions to answer. This doesn't answer my question, at all. You said that he has done a lot for this business, and I asked why. You gave a quote about Jeff not being a spot-monkey.

#54 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:35 PM

So Jeff improved on being a spot monkey, get you're facts right dude, you say you watch wrestling but perhaps you don't.

#55 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:41 PM

Have you used your own opinion once today, or just stolen others.

You still haven't answered the question I asked you. You said he has done a lot for the business, I asked why. You still haven't answered me.

#56 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:44 PM

Why? One because the script was what brought him to showing his improvemnt in the ring with top notch players, enough of the tagging as well as Matt goes with His USA Champion. So both ham improved alot since going solo and of course because of the script but all the ideas for the script aren't just made by the WWE but also WWE superstars put in their thought sand that's why and how The Hardyz made it where they are now, "The Top".

#57 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:48 PM

You still didn't say how Jeff has done a lot for the business.

WWE superstars, other than REAL top guys have little to no input on storylines. Can you honestly say that Jeff is at the top? He just got back from yet another suspension, and is not in a title fued, or a main event fued. That doesn't seem like the top to me.

#58 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 01:58 PM

Before the suspension you idiot!!

And I posted many reasons why dude, you either are dumb or you're rushing through the reasons!

Edited by Blood On The Sand, 20 May 2008 - 01:59 PM.


#59 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:03 PM

By reasons, you mean agreeing with the people who posted ahead of you? "Idiot," never once did you mention anything about before the suspension. So sorry, I can't read what mind you have.

You still haven't told me how he hhas done a lot for the company, also.

#60 Grizz

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:07 PM

I'll agree with Phoenix, Jeff is terribly overrated. He gets the label of high flyer but was Mike Awesome a high flyer cause he does two moves of that category? No. I think these guys calling Phoenix names for not liking somebody need to get their head out of their ass, its his opinion you should respect it.

#61 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:10 PM

View PostGregory Alan, on May 20 2008, 04:07 PM, said:

I'll agree with Phoenix, Jeff is terribly overrated. He gets the label of high flyer but was Mike Awesome a high flyer cause he does two moves of that category? No. I think these guys calling Phoenix names for not liking somebody need to get their head out of their ass, its his opinion you should respect it.

Thank you Grizz. Finally somebody agrees with me on this.

That is like saying that Undertkaer, or Kane are highflyers, because they jump off of the top rope. Or Vader, because he does a moonsault. It's just not right.

Edited by phoenixsplash630, 20 May 2008 - 02:10 PM.


#62 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:11 PM

View PostPurity, on May 20 2008, 04:24 AM, said:

If you would read what I had posted, I said he is a hater because he hates Hardy despite what everybody says to back him, he still gives him no credit at all. Ok, I didn't say that but I meant it. I didn't call him a hater because he has "seen better" wrestlers than Hardy, but because he has no actual basis to hate him by. Given all of the realistic reasons behind why Hardy is good, he gives him ZERO credit.
Calls him over-rated because in the PAST Hardy only got over because of his risk moves, even though that's not really over-rated, as Lust pointed out, because he wasn't a main eventer. And thinks he's over-rated now, why? There's really no reason why, Jeff Hardy is a skilled wrestler, maybe not the best, I would go so far as to say that he probably needs a little more work to be champion material (especially his mic skills. Mic skills don't make a good wrestler, but they do certainly help a good wrestler look great with the gold), but he deserves at least a little credit for how far he's come.

So, he's a hater not because there are "better" high-fliers that he likes more, but because he gives him no credit. Which is true.
Enough said

#63 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:13 PM

Still none of your own points, and you still didn't answer how he has done a lot in the WWE. This is just a great post from Purity saying he's not just a spot-monkey. Irrelevant to the question.

#64 Grizz

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:13 PM

No problem, I can see already their gonna try to pick your opinion apart like they do mine so we need to stick together. :P

Exactly, Jeff isn't a high flyer, he is a wannabe with not a lot of wrestling ability. Like Phoenix said, anyone can jump of something. Also, anybody can sell a headlock or give a headlock, chop, suplex, the basics.

#65 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:17 PM

But Jeff has jumped off the most dangerous platforms and has done the craziest jumps that others wouldn't do because they can't get it done right and has no ability to do it the way Jeff does all his High flying moves

You guy's are just haters :P

I'll defend Jeff till I die if needed to!!


#66 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:20 PM

Oh yes, jumping off of a building makes me the best wrestler alive, hahahaha. That is just dumb saying that. So is John Zandig the best wreslter there is to you? Jumping off of ladders or scaffolds just makes you a wrose wrestler. Anybody can do it.

Jeff doesn't have any highflying moves, at all. The Swanton isn't impressive at all.

Edited by phoenixsplash630, 21 May 2008 - 05:52 PM.


#67 Kiyomi Takada

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:22 PM

View PostGregory Alan, on May 20 2008, 02:13 PM, said:

No problem, I can see already their gonna try to pick your opinion apart like they do mine so we need to stick together. :P

Exactly, Jeff isn't a high flyer, he is a wannabe with not a lot of wrestling ability. Like Phoenix said, anyone can jump of something. Also, anybody can sell a headlock or give a headlock, chop, suplex, the basics.
Ah new blood to feast on *rubs hands menacingly* ^_____________^ Welcome to the debate. :) Are you a master debater like us? :D

Well, being a high-flier isn't about doing hundreds of high spots, its about using all of your abilities and speed to take down an opponent, and Jeff Hardy's matches with Umaga are prime examples of this. His high-flying isn't what makes him great, its his overall ability to time comebacks perfectly, and to make his opponent look good by selling his ass off. For a good example of this, watch the Umaga matches, or the HHH matches. He does his high flying when he needs to, and not just for the sake of it, which is always good.

The high flying moves don't have to be impressive, they just have to: a) pop the crowd. B) add to the match. c) be timed perfectly. Three prerequisites that Hardy excels in.

Yes, anyone could sell those moves, but Hardy sells them perfectly, and continues to sell all offense even when executing his own moves, and its these little highlights which make all the difference.

Edited by Izumi Curtis, 20 May 2008 - 02:24 PM.


#68 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:31 PM

Please Don't offend me!!!! :(

#69 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:32 PM

View PostBlood On The Sand, on May 20 2008, 04:31 PM, said:

Please Don't offend me!!!! :(

What? Please stay on topic.

#70 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:38 PM

What is there to say?? I said I will eventually post my reasons to why Cena is overrated.

#71 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:39 PM

Why not do it now? Because you don't have any.

#72 Grizz

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:40 PM

Well, being a high-flier isn't about doing hundreds of high spots
But its more than doing three like Jeff does.

His high-flying isn't what makes him great, its his overall ability to time comebacks perfectly, and to make his opponent look good by selling his ass off.
I just don't see this in him.

The high flying moves don't have to be impressive, they just have to: a) pop the crowd. (B) add to the match. c) be timed perfectly. Three prerequisites that Hardy excels in.
He can do that, I'm not saying he can't just he needs to get off the high flyer gimmick cause he's not or get some new moves.

Hardy sells them perfectly
lol A little much don't you think?

Ah new blood to feast on *rubs hands menacingly*
lol

Are you a master debater like us?
Sometimes, I could be but most of the time I get tired of typing. :lol:

#73 BIG~FAT~CHICKEN

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:41 PM

I have my details, I wanna attach other links and also vids that also point out why he's Overrated!! Be patient dude!!

#74 phoenixsplash630

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:44 PM

View PostBlood On The Sand, on May 20 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

I have my details, I wanna attach other links and also vids that also point out why he's Overrated!! Be patient dude!!

So you don't have your own opinions again? You also have to research to find them, if you have to go through all of this, it obviously means something. That he isn't that overrated.

#75 Sergio

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:45 PM

I think Hater is the proper term here for phoenix. I don't mean any disrespect at all and I'm sure Purity does not either. He just used the term to describe phoenix's feelings for Jeff because after all of the discussion, Pheonix will not give Jeff any credit at all.

In the past, I liked Jeff. He was awesome. He had this edgy look and really stood out. He had a cool arsenal of moves, but my memory may be off, but I don't recall him being a spot monkey even in 1999. He fought in a tag division in which the action was fast paced and his style was very suitable alongside Matt Hardy. He only ever took advantage of a huge spot whenever the environment allowed it, such as at the 2000 Royal Rumble when he jumped off the prop car onto Bubba Ray Dudley through a stack of tables. Also in cage matches or ladder matches. It's what added to his character. He could not resist putting his body on the line to win a match and it showed during a cage dive when Matt climbed out and Jeff's dive caused him to fail and get double teamed by Edge & Christian (I think), in which they later won the match. It added tension between Matt and Jeff. He took spots when he needed to. I don't recall Jeff being a crazy circus style indy "wrestler" who flips around while his opponent lays down long enough for a fancy flip.

- I can't see him being over rated even then as he was in the tag division where he fit best.

Then came the time when the annoying brand split took place and Jeff Hardy went solo on RAW. Even then, he changed his look and cut his hair shorter. New colors, new attire (same pants, white wife beater), and he added neon paint to his body which made his look and entrance more unique in WWE. This added to his charisma just as it did before the change. At this point, Jeff was still fighting like a cruiser/light weight. He had to move fast and use the environment to his advantage especially against the main event level stars. A lot of people praise his ladder match against Undertaker because it was "a different Hardy" who showed "improvement." The reality was that he was facing someone in which he had to adapt his style. He had to slow down with Undertaker. He had to fight like a heavyweight would. His relentlessness and courage in that match gained him a lot of respect. Even so, at this point in his career, he had already won singles titles like the European, IC, and maybe the Light Heavyweight or Hardcore titles.

- I don't think he was over rated here either unless the general consensus was that he should be WWE Champ.

Jeff Hardy now, I still like. I have never stopped liking Jeff's flair, charisma, and style. These days he seems slower and a bit more fine tuned due to being in the ring with the upper card wrestlers. Even today he'll take advantage of a high spot when the opportunity calls. He demonstrated that at WM 22 when he "took himself out" by diving off the ladder onto Edge. He didn't do anything drastic like a 450, 720 or 1000078234 degree flip. He did a leg drop which was modified into him landing on his ass on Edge. Sure he jumped from a tall ladder, but he did it as safely as possible. In a cage with Umaga, Jeff showed his dare devil side again when he climbed to the top and did a WitW to Umaga after Randy Orton threatened to attack Jeff if he climbed out. Jeff responded with a "oh yea, I don't need to climb out" and landed a high spot move in which it psyched Randy out. He did it again vs Orton when he climbed up near the titantron and swantoned onto Orton.

Jeff in no way is a spot monkey because he does not whore them out in his matches. His spots make sense unlike indy wrestlers who put on a circus of acrobatics instead of a wrestling match. Don't get me wrong, I love the cool moves that make me go HOLY SHIT! Did he just pull that off? Those moves are great, but that can't be all it takes to say someone is a great wrestler. Some of those HOLY SHIT moves look cool, but still come off as too assisted. Take Petey Williams and the Canadian Destroyer for example. People love that move, but it looks like the opponent is the one who flips first before Petey does. That move looks heavily assisted to be taken seriously. Just like when I see avatars of indy wrestlers carrying a guy on his shoulders and his partner climbs on the TB to perform some strange flip.

Jeff is great. From his looks, his style, his moves, and skills... he's an all around awesome performer and entertainer. Jeff Hardy doesn't even need to wrestle because his entrance alone gets the crowd fired up. People see Jeff with anticipation of what crazy move will he do this time. However, since he's been moved up to better level opponents, his push makes him look better because he has slowed his pace down and is relying more on the mechanics that make people like Cena, Austin, HHH, etc good. He's giving you more wrestling.

Aside from all of that, if you don't like Jeff Hardy, then it has to be personal. Maybe he just doesn't do it for you for some reason. I was the same as you with MVP. I hated the guy since day 1. I was a full blown hater. I hate when people act like they are hot shit and arrogant, which is what he is. It didn't make me like him or like to hate him in a wrestling sense of hate. I actually hated him personally in which I would rather see him fired. Over time, MVP showed a lot of wrestling skill and ability and he won my respect over it. I like to hate him now because I have grown used to his arrogance and cockiness. At least now it makes more sense because I like him as a performer and I like to hate him for his gimmick. The only thing I really disliked personally about him was how they kept him with the US title for too long and he barely defended it. I guess that's the story of the US and IC Title.

If you're a Jeff Hardy Hater, I understand it. It's not fair of me to judge you on your feelings towards him based on mine for him. The only thing I think that puts people off about your feelings for Jeff is that your hatred for him is making you deny his skill and ring work. You're doing everything you can to say he sucks overall. His charisma and popularity is through the roof which I know you acknowledge, but denying his credibility as a wrestler is what puts others off. I know I would piss people off if I said MVP had no skill. If I truly hated him personally, I probably would say that because only then would I feel comfortable to not like anything he does even if I'm wrong.

Edit: I'm making grammatical edits as I reread my post. Sorry if some things are worded wrong.